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HurricaneBob
AA Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 2790
Location: /root/2/pub
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 Posted: Friday May 26, 2006 |
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Burgi's has a public meeting lined up with the PLCB for outside amplified music. I told Dave tonight about PACAG and he would love to talk with them about this.
Wednesday May 31st 10:00 am at Burgis Party room is the PLCB hearing.
He said the township is behind him and gave him full support of having outside music on their patios. But we all know that just wont do it.
Dave or Chuck 814-943-1333 |
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onetooloud
Gold Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 263
Location: Johnstown
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| Posted: Friday May 26, 2006 |
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Wow PLCB gonna be busy that day. They are to have another meeting at the Hamton inn that day.
I'll talk with them (BURGIES) as I have a show there Saturday. |
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Jim Price
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Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 4817
Location: Altoona, PA
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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Here is what took place at the hearing. (If anyone who was there has additional comments or corrections to what I've reported, feel free to chime in below.)
After opening comments from PLCB hearing examiner Tom Miller to introduce the hearing, Logan Township Solicitor Larry Clapper then introduced the township's petition to enable Burgi's to run amplified music outdoors.
Logan Township Police Chief Ron Heller was then introduced; he reaffirmed the Township's own noise ordinance, and explained his department's policies in enforcing that ordinance. He said the section of Logan Township where Burgi's is located is zoned Business/Industrial, and a 62 DB limit is established for businesses in that section to adhere to. He said that if an officer receives a complaint, he could use a decibel meter on the scene or subjectively determine if the sound is too loud.
The floor was then opened to general public comments from people who signed up to speak before the hearing began. Dave Burgmeier himself explained why Burgi's desires to run outside amplified music, and his intentions should permission be granted. He said that outdoor live music would generally run between 6 and 11 PM, and would be limited to piano or acoustic on his front patio (facing Route 220), or small bands on the rear patio (facing the hillside behind Burgi's).
Other speakers then addressed the hearing board and floor, both pro and against the petition. Representatives of the Central PA Humane Society (which is located across the street from Burgi's), Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, and a representative of a local youth baseball league all spoke in favor of the petition, citing Burgi's support of charitable organizations by using their facility to stage benefit motorcycle runs, benefit concerts and other events. Other patrons, music fans, Rockpagers (nakedtwister, tornandfrayed and Hannibal) and nearby business owners all voiced support for Burgi's, citing the venue's professionalism, support of the community, and pleasant experience of enjoying food and music on Burgi's patio. All those who were against the petition were nearby neighbors who voiced concern over excess noise and the desire to maintain their quiet neighborhood. One gray-haired neighbor was particularly adamant about rejecting the petition, almost insistent that anybody who didn't live near Burgi's had no business getting up and speaking at the hearing. Dave Burgmeier's attorney defused several of the neighbors' arguments, establishing that their concerns were about increased noise, and not so much about noise from the venue thus far. Some neighbors also expressed dismay over the sounds of roaring motorcycles at Burgi's. The last speaker, Phil Reigh, offered some decibel readings he took himself outside the venue before the hearing, establishing that speaking voices and passing vehicles on Route 220 were actually louder than the Logan Township decibel limit of 62 DB.
After all the speakers said their pieces, Dave Burgmeier stepped back to the front to offer rebuttals to some of the arguments against the petition, and again explained the visitation of LCE to Burgi's during the Railroaders Museum benefit concert held there last September (which was staged under a special event permit held by the Railroaders Museum).
Finally, Sgt. Hawk of the Pennsylvania State Police Liquor Control Enforcement stepped up to offer comments and field questions. He established that Burgi's has had four complaints of noise prior to May 16 of this year. He said a warning was issued for the Railraoders Museum event last September 11. He generally conceded that Burgi's has had a relatively good record with regard to noise thus far, but also reported that the state police reported two recent noise violations from May 14 and 27 (this month). He also established that the state Liquor Code, which the LCE enforces, is ZERO TOLERANCE with regards to noise levels, and even said that if the piano music on Burgi's front patio could be heard out along Route 220 in front of the venue (without the peitition being granted and the Logan Township ordinance taking precedence), they would be in violation under the state Liquor Code and subject to citation. Sgt. Hawk also said that once a violation has been reported, the state police revisit the venue to ensure compliance with the noise regulation. (So if a place does get cited, it in essence has a bullseye on it for future visitation.)
Tom Miller then concluded the hearing, indicating that a decision would be handed down within 60 days of the filing date of the petition, which was May 8. Final word on the matter should be announced before July 7.
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bassist_25
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Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 6815
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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I really wish I could have attended and Nakedtwister, Torn&frayed, and Hannibal had every right to be there, since they are musicians and this is about a venue and live music.
Though I found this two comments particular humorous and ironic.
| Jim Price wrote: |
Logan Township Police Chief Ron Heller was then introduced; he reaffirmed the Township's own noise ordinance, and explained his department's policies in enforcing that ordinance. He said the section of Logan Township where Burgi's is located is zoned Business/Industrial, and a 62 DB limit is established for businesses in that section to adhere to.
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| Jim Price wrote: | | Some neighbors also expressed dismay over the sounds of roaring motorcycles at Burgi's. |
Umm, don't want noise, then don't live in an industrial zone. I'll go build a house near the airport then complain when 747s wake me up at night.
I hope that Burgi's is granted the right to have entertainment on the patios. It's a venue that I patronize quite frequently, and is one of the nicest "bar" atmospheres I've ever been in. I don't feel like I'm sitting in a bar when I go see entertainment there. Central Pa needs a little culture.
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HurricaneBob
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Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 2790
Location: /root/2/pub
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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| Sorry i couldnt be there, Dave told me the reason he wants this is because of other states allowing outside music. When he got back from Myrtle Beach he said bands played outside everywhere legally. Hopefully he gets this so we can jam the patio every Thursday. |
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Jim Price
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Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 4817
Location: Altoona, PA
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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In his explanation, Dave mentioned that even here in PA, places in Harrisburg and Pittsburgh can do outdoor live music. I'd like to see him succeed as well. and perhaps pave the way for the City of Altoona to lift their outdoor music ban so places like the 4D's can offer music on their outdoor deck as well.
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jangel
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Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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I certainly hope that Dave gets the right to hold outside music. But here we are in a state that cries about unemployment and businesses pulling out and does nothing to help the situation. Also with so many retirees and elderly people in the area that it becomes impossible to move forward.
They Vote and most of the young people don't. Politicians listen to who votes.
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onetooloud
Gold Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 263
Location: Johnstown
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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I talked to Dave on Saturday while there. He told me there isn't a house for at least 1/2 mile from his place. It upset myself that I wasn't able to be there. Man would that have been an early day for me.
Thats one way to stack the deck in you favor the LCB.
So who are these people who object?? The gray haired fella. They must have some awefull good hearing.
It also sounds like they dislike the loud motorcycles? I've heard that before !! That is a common compliant I've heard at other places being fined by the LCB. |
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Blain
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Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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| I'm afraid that this is really a lost cause, if only because of the "zero tolerance" rule. One complaint, even a bullshit complaint, and they'll be finished, if they even get permission to do it. |
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nakedtwister
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Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 942
Location: Altoona,Pa
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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| Unfortunately I am not a very good public speaker and I didn't have much time to think about what to say. I can understand the concerns the neighbors had about loud music outside but Dave doesn't intend on staging a Mudvayne concert there. We are talking acuostic acts and such. Blaming Dave for the cycle noise is totally assinine. Is all of the traffic noise in their hood now Daves fault? The gentleman who was leading the petition against Dave was all but deaf. I witnessed him severall times pardoning himself because he couldn't hear the person behind him in a very quiet room. The problem I see is that if they do favor Dave in this then the neighbors will endlessly continue to call in reports to the State Police to which the local ordinances don't apply. That 62db level means shit to them. That in turn is where the problem lies and needs changed. |
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onetooloud
Gold Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 263
Location: Johnstown
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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It is a load of crap to blame Burgies for cycle noise but noone bothers the bikes.
At little story hear. Many people hear complaints of trucks being too loud they get fined. Mostly due to loud engine brakes not exhaust noise. I had a semi-truck come in for state inspection some years ago without a muffler. I was almost fired for not passing it. The only reason it had no muffler was to be loud.
Well I didn't pass it. The owner was irrate. But the reason I gave for not passing it was because 6 maybe 7 tires out of ten where below 2/32 thread depth the state limit.
This truck had tons of chrome and lights everwhere very nice truck. This guy could buy chrome and chicken lights but not tires.
Well everytime some place proposes to open the public bitches about truck traffic and noise. The same appears true about motorcycles.
I think its time the police crack down on loud trucks , bikes and cars with fart cans. That would help our cause.
I can be done most of these items have the words FOR OFFROAD RACING USE ONLY NOT LEGAL FOR USE ON PUBLIC HIGHWAYS printed on them.
I don't dislike the loud trucks cars motorcycles, but the problems they cause. Hell they sound good to me. Some of these damn fart cans on peace of shit imports don't, but not all. |
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tornandfrayed
Diamond Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 1761
Location: The Jaded Empire
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| Posted: Wednesday May 31, 2006 |
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If the petition passes then the PLCB will no longer be responsible for monitoring this location. It would fall onto the Logan Township police. They were represented toady and indicated that they would indeed be able and willing to do this. This would eliminate the "Zero Tolerance" bullshit and create a situation where the officer responding to a complaint could use a meter (They only have one!) or could make the call subjectively, he would stand by there house and determine if the music was too loud. I drove down to Lyndon drive and could really hear the traffice well! So... I kinda think that Burgies is going to win this one.
The people objecting were objecting to creating new noise that has not previously existed. They looked like older people who were just not real clear on what the whole thing was about.
What I think is important is that if Burgies does win then this is a possible precedent that could be used to great advantage futher down the road. I felt that the feeling was positive for Burgies. In conversation with the attorney representing Burgies he was also p[ositive. You never know around here though!
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drums=life
Gold Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 495
Location: South Jersey / Philly
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| Posted: Thursday Jun 01, 2006 |
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Fuck the PLCB!!!!! Everyday im finding more reasons to hate the commonwealth of PA. This state sucks in so many ways. I wish they would privitize the whole thing like every other state in the union. I dont believe anything the PLCB says, all politics. So in closing, turn it the fuck up to "11"
FedUP will every chance we get!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Hannibal
Gold Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 132
Location: Bellwood
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| Posted: Thursday Jun 01, 2006 |
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It was interesting to see the looks on the faces of several people at the hearing when some dB readings were given. The Logan Township ordinance states 62dB, as JP reported. The highway in front of Burgi's with no vehicles passing, read 59dB, basic background noise. A medium sized truck passing was 85 dB. Inside the meeting room, the level of one of the people speaking was 73dB. Personally, I think the township needs to revise its decibel limit. In their defense, the people who write these ordinances generally find one from another area that they like, modify it slightly, and adopt it. I don't think they ever take sound pressure level [SPL] readings before they pass an ordinance. 62dB, in my opinion, is an unrealistic number. 75dB would at least be reasonable.
The one neighbor who was protesting the petition said he could hear drums from Burgi's. He's the one JP reported that could hardly hear the LCB hearing officer at the same table he was testifying at. Go figure.
As a point of information, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia have gotten petitions approved for specific zones in their downtown areas to exempt the LCB rule. Burgi asked the township to petition for this based on patrons asking for it. "They do it there, why not here?" It is the municipality which must file the petition on behalf of the licensed establishment. The municipality must have a noise ordinance on the books before the petition may be filed, and must have enforcement provisions included in the ordinance.
The LCB rule is not specifically for any music heard outside. It is AMPLIFIED music heard outside of the licensed establishment that is prohibited. An AM/FM radio on the patio is considered "amplified music" and is a violation. Background music piped outside for patrons waiting in line to enter is a violation, too. It's a rule that needs modified, but I doubt it will ever be eliminated. An acoustic instrument outside, with NO amplification is NOT a violation, as I understand the rule.
A reasonable logical approach to the rules is needed here, not the F*@# it all rhetoric. That makes enemies, and friends are what we need here instead.
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Jim Price
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Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 4817
Location: Altoona, PA
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| Posted: Thursday Jun 01, 2006 |
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Blain said:
| Quote: | | I'm afraid that this is really a lost cause, if only because of the "zero tolerance" rule. One complaint, even a bullshit complaint, and they'll be finished, if they even get permission to do it. |
I spoke with Chuck at Burgi's after the hearing ended, and he said he and Dave already know full well that if the petition is approved, that the venue will be under a magnifying glass for a while, and that they'll need to make sure they comply with everything to the max. If they agree that outside entertainment runs til 11 PM, for instance, they'll end it at 10:50, so there is no margin for them to get busted.
I think in the bigger picture, though, we still have to fight the good fight to get that LCB noise regulation changed; or get it changed from municipality to municipality so that local noise ordinances take precedence. If the Burgi's petition is approved, it is at least a small victory, and shows that it is possible to get small changes through.
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Jerry C
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
Location: Northern Cambria, Pa.
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| Posted: Thursday Jun 01, 2006 |
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Did anyone think of mentioning other places such as Blair County Ballpark which has to be way over the db limit? I don't know if it was the right place or time , but just a thought.
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Last edited by Jerry C on Friday Jun 02, 2006; edited 1 time in total |
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Ron
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2031
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Thursday Jun 01, 2006 |
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| Jerry C wrote: | | Did anyone think of mentioning other places such as Blair County Ballpark which has to way over the db limit? I don't know if it was the right place or time , but just a thought. |
That's a very good point Jerry, because if the ballpark isn't getting fined and local bars are, then doesn't that show selected enforcement?
I testified in PLCB "court" once for a club owner who claimed that he was the victim of selected enforcement. The court took it very, very seriously and the facts were there to support his claim. In the end the LCB simply threw the claim out based on the fact that their zero tolerance noise policy made the defendant guilty regardless of his other claims. It was sickening.
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BDR
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 4086
Location: Shelocta, PA
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| Posted: Friday Jun 02, 2006 |
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Maybe it's because Blain isn't a jerk-off. Your identical post was deleted by the adminstrators of this site yesterday for a reason.
Get a clue.
r:>)
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Jim Price
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Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 4817
Location: Altoona, PA
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| Posted: Friday Jun 02, 2006 |
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The reasonS for gazoo17's post getting repeatedly deleted yesterday and today are as foillows:
!. It has nothing to do with the topic being discussed, which is Burgi's hearing. It is gazoo17 wahbabying because he got disrespected on a prior thread. As BadDazeRob said, GET A CLUE! GET OVER IT! GROW UP!
2. Gazoo17's post is in violation of several rules governing this board; rules that gazoo17 agreed to when he first signed on to Rockpage. Those rules are:
| Quote: | | Trolling is prohibited.Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the board. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion in the long run, it only encourages personal attacks (if left unchecked). |
| Quote: | | Bans and warnings are not to be discussed on the forums. Any inquiries or comments or bans are to be sent in private messages or via email. A moderator may choose to publicly inform the participants of a forum about bans and warnings if this is in the interest of the forum. |
| Quote: | | Posting in all caps is considered shouting, and will be dealt with on a case by case basis at the moderators' discretion. |
| Quote: | Not responding to or ignoring moderator warnings can lead to suspension.
Unsolvable problems (including bannings) a participant has with a moderator are to be discussed with the Forum Administrator(s). |
That's four rules that have been directly or partially violated. I have PM'ed gazoo17 to give him one final warning to knock off the bullcrap. Now that warning is public. Gazoo17, straighten up or Rockpage admin will ship you out and off of this board!
Now, back to our discussion of the Burgi's hearing...
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