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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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 Posted: Tuesday Sep 09, 2003 |
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I was looking for some advice on miking drums (Live not recording), is it acceptable to use 1 mike for 2 toms or will this cause problems? I know ( I've Heard) a compressor and a gate are the key to a good drum sound, I can see 1 compressor working but 1 gate would pretty much stay open if my thinking is correct. Should multiple gates be used? Or will 1 compressor alone get a decent sound.
Also lets base the answers on a clean present but not overpowering drum sound not necessarily the "Big" drum sound everyone shoots for, and also lets say 1 set of 18" subs and 1 set of full range speakers 1500-2000 watts for both, mid quality products |
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Ron
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2031
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Tuesday Sep 09, 2003 |
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Hi Tony,
Here's some of the things I've run across when miking up kits.
1. You can mic two toms with one mic if absolutely necessary, but you'll tend to get more rings and an overall muddier sound since the mic can't be located very close to either drum head.
2. If the kit isn't tuned correctly or maintained very well, you'll need a gate for each drum, + a comp if available. If overused, though, this can make the drums sound like cheap electronic drums. Yuk.
3. One gate won't work. You're right, it would just stay open or flick on and off causing the drums' sound to "pump". You can, however gang two tom mics on one gate if necessary. One comp would work, but to get the golden sound you are looking for, a separate gat and comp for each drum channel is better, especially on drums with an inherently crappy sound.
4. If the drummer you are miking has a good sounding kit and spends the time to properly set them up and tune them, your job will be 10x easier, and gates won't really be needed.
5. Soooo many sound guys tend to have the kick drum level way too high with too slow of a decay. I hear so many bands where you can tell that the sound guy was concentrating on getting the kick as loud as possible, then boosted the levels on the vocals way past their "clipping" point in order to try and bring them out in the mix. I like the kick to have little decay so that it sounds like a click, but feels like someone punched you in the chest. This can be done without covering up any of the rest of the band. We used to call it the "sledgehammer on an I-beam sound". (patent pending) 
6. Cheap mics = cheap sound.
7. Mic placement is a black art, and what works on some kits will not work well on others. If you're a house sound guy, this makes it tough since you don't have much time to experiment on placement during a sound check. You just have to use the Ron Popeil method and "Set it and forget it". Not the best option, but usually a necessary one.
8. It's a good idea to have a seperate 31 band EQ on the drum sub-channel of the mixer if you can swing it.
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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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| Posted: Tuesday Sep 09, 2003 |
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Thanks Ron, Thats what I was lookin for
By The way this site is great, very helpful for dummies like myself |
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redawg
Retroactive Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 469
Location: Walking On Sunshine
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| Posted: Wednesday Sep 10, 2003 |
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| Hey Tony, here's what's been working for me. I've been using a seperate mic for each drum and I have been putting one mic over top the whole kit. I wish I had a condenser for that but the SM57 seems to be doing ok for bringing out the cymbals in my mix. The things I worry about gating the most are things that will build up low end feedback. I gate the kick drum and the large toms. I don't gate the snare or the smaller toms because they will not cause me any low end feedback problems. I would like to compress each drum seperately but I only have 4 extra compressors. I compress the kick and toms. I have to rely on the mains compressor to get the snare. It really sucks when a drummer comes in with his drum kit all muffeled up. The best drum sound comes from a kit with both top and bottom heads tuned properly. Wide open. No muffelling. Except for the kick drum of course. I don't believe you should use gates to chop off drum sounds. I think they should only be used for feedback elimination. There usually is a hold feature on a good gate. Use your ears. For the toms, you want the whole note of the drum to sound and the gate should shut right after that. You want the gate to shut on the kick quicker than that. If you stop at the Castle Pub Friday, Saturday or Sunday night this week while I'm running sound, I'll show you some stuff that works for me. |
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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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| Posted: Thursday Sep 11, 2003 |
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Thanks Red,
I won't be able to stop up this weekend maybe next, That place gets too nuts for me though, I only like a crowd if I'm playin.
Stacy and I have a new Band we're getting ready and I'm just pricing equipment and trying to see what I'm getting into before we decide the Rent or buy issue. I used to always avoid the soundboard but now its up to me..... Yikes ( I should have paid attention)
Anyway congrats on the Skid Row show....... I hope to make that one. |
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songsmith
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 6108
Location: The Wood of Bells
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| Posted: Thursday Sep 11, 2003 |
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I'm thinking if you have feedback problems with tom mics, they're gained too hot. A drum is a pretty loud animal, and the input gain shouldn't need to be up too far. Also, is the feedback through the monitors? I've never liked much drum in the monitors anyway... I mean, you sit right up on them, how loud do they need to be? If that's the case, maybe the problem is the all-too-common "too much freakin' stage volume." Walls of Marshalls are good, don't get me wrong, I love that sound, but does there have to be so MUCH of it? See, then the bassist turns up, then the drummer hits harder, the guitarist gets yet another stack, the bassist turns up...you get the idea. It spirals to a really difficult gig for the soundman.
I do agree that the drum sound du jour is unmuffled, well-tuned heads, and most like them gated, a la Phil Collins. I'm into a more ambient sound myself, but it's almost impossible to get that live, especially if the stage levels are loud.
Also, try a cheap condenser mic on that overhead. They can be had in the $50.00 range from Musician's Friend, yeah, that cheap. The SM-57 is probably the best all-around microphone ever made, but the condensers add that "air" and are much more responsive in this use. Excellent thread.-------->JMS |
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redawg
Retroactive Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 469
Location: Walking On Sunshine
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| Posted: Friday Sep 12, 2003 |
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| The feedback I'm talking about is low end feedback that the drum mics pick up. I like to apply large amounts of low end to the kick and bigger toms. I don't run any drums through the monitors. The stage in the club isn't the biggest. The 4000 watts of subwoofers is closer than usual to the drum kit. The drum mics tend to pick up that low end and turn it into feedback if I don't gate them. I have to admit I like to mix loud. That seems to be the only way to get THE SOUND. You couldn't be more right about the need for a condenser. Hopefully my boss will get me one or two soon. I'm mixing Foundry Avenue and Bad Daze at the Castle Pub tonite. You guys are gonna pound that place hard. |
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Thursday Sep 25, 2003 |
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Go on eBay and get another mic for $50!
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Thursday Sep 25, 2003 |
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But seriously folks... If you decide not to mic every drum, you can try getting 3 really hot condensers like Neumann KM84 or AT4051 and place them at a height right between the toms and cymbals to create 3 zones--left, right and center. Mic placement is critical to pick up all instruments in the zone without getting a ring out of the toms. Of course, you should still mic the bass drum, snare drum and hi-hat. I tried this once when I had to run sound for 2 days with 16 bands and it worked extremely well--I recorded the live mix onto CDs and Jim Price told me they were broadcast quality.
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Ron
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2031
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Thursday Sep 25, 2003 |
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Man those Neumann KM84 mics are wonderful. I had a chance to use one of them before, and the airiness and accuracy was incredible. Unfortunately, so is their price ($700 to $800). Wow! Do you actually own some of them Lonewolf? I've seen some Neumann's (M250 if I remember right) advertised at $15,000.00! That thing better place itself!
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Wednesday Oct 01, 2003 |
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Yep, I have 4 mid-1970s KM84s...The Altoona Bible Church was revamping their systems and had 3 hanging above the soundstage with a 4th stashed for backup. They fired them up every Sunday for 25 years and kept them fresh. They were selling off equipment and I just happen to know their sound man. I bought all 4 of them for $600 (total!)...3 of them have CONSECUTIVE SERIAL NUMBERS! Killer mics...killer deal! Too bad they didn't have the cherry boxes....
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