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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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 Posted: Monday Nov 03, 2003 |
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OK so I'm the dummy, but besides that.......
I really don't have a great ear for wich frequency is causing a problem and going to the right fader and fixing it. Besides that I want to play more than piss with an EQ. So....... what products do you guys recomend for a guy like myself ? The DBX driverackpa add in musicians friend says "auto EQ"? That sounds like the ticket but is it really? I had the peavy FLS ( feedback locating system ) on our acoustic setup and it helped to find a problem frequency. The peavey rack eq's are pretty pricy and I could probably buy the DBX units for the same as a peavy eq and a compressor. The Behringer ultra curve would be the cheapeast route for Eq and compression but is it reliable?
Also besides price I REALLY don't want to have anything that is going to be a hassle, I want a quik set and forget kinda thing ( better yet set itself )
Come on........ help a PA sysem illiterate! |
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facingwest
Retroactive Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Posts: 651
Location: Key West, FL
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| Posted: Monday Nov 03, 2003 |
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The Behringer is a great unit, however, I don't think it's really going to be what you need for the simple fact is you just can't grab a fader and bring a single frequency down. With it, you have to do some scrolling. The good points to it are you can throw pink/white noise and flat line a system, then set the filters for feedback. However, as long as you take the time to set the EQ to the room, you really shouldn't have too many problems with it once it's set.
I've had the pleasure of using those Peavey's you're talking about and really like the set up because, like you said, you actually have a visual to go by as far as which frequencies are taking off. Something you should seriously try considering to do is ballparking a frequency by listening to it. There are definitely trouble frequencies that you can go by in learning what the frequencies are (100, 250, 500, 1k, 2k, 4-5k, and around 10k) There are more, but those are the most common ones I've seen.
The DBX you're talking about, I've read on and think it's quite the unit, providing it will do everything it says it does. Another thing you have to look at is what I said before....How easy is it going to be for me to get to the trouble frequency, then bring it down?
Anyone else want to shed some light on this?  |
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tom
Gold Member
Joined: 15 Dec 2002
Posts: 184
Location: toona
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| Posted: Monday Nov 03, 2003 |
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| I have a Driverack and I love it. From the first time I used it, I noticed a change in the overall sound of our PA. The Compression is Killer... The Feedback Eliminator works well, without killing the sound. The only thing I haven't used it for is the speaker alignment delay. It does take time to get used to not having the faders at your fingertips. |
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Craven Sound
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 695
Location: Cambria County, PA
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| Posted: Monday Nov 03, 2003 |
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| I use a cheap DOD 31 Band RTA. It's really old, but it has a calibrated mic, and a built-in pinknoise generator. It's a pretty handy piece of gear. |
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Tuesday Nov 04, 2003 |
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I have a driverack PA and have only one complaint. The RTA mic phantom power is only 15V instead of 48V. I can't use any of my Neumanns as a reference mic. Details, details....
Aside from that, this is an amazing little box. The EQ is not meant to control feedback--its there to "flatten the room" so that you have an even frequency response coming out of your speakers in whatever environment you happen to be in.
The Auto EQ on the DR PA is very intuitive and does its job with about 2 minutes of pink. You can hear it adjusting the different frequencies as it does its thing. I noticed that it seems to go back thru and adjust all frequencies up or down to change the response baseline level. Although I haven't had a chance to put a 3rd party RTA on it, the audible results are excellent. I prefer a flat curve, but there is a menu with different response curves to choose from.
Once you do the auto EQ, the menu goes right into the feedback filter section. The setup here is no different than on my Sabine FBX2020, where you gradually raise the main levels to create feedback and a notch filter quickly pops in at the feedback frequency. You can set the number of fixed filters...I use 10, allowing 2 to "float" real time. You can set how long these floating frequencies are engaged. I am used to the industry standard Sabine with 12 filters per channel. The DR PA has 12 filters, but they are dynamically assigned to the feedback from both channels. The DR PA catches the feedback frequency just a little bit faster than the Sabine!
I don't think I need to say much about the quality of compression, limiting and crossover in this unit except that its dbx and responds accordingly.
This unit does everything dbx advertises it does. I strongly feel that if you properly use this unit and you are still having trouble with feedback you either:
1. need new hypercardioid microphones
2. are too loud
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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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| Posted: Tuesday Nov 04, 2003 |
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Craven....... I heard 2 of my favorite words. Cheap and Good. Wich means they probably don't make it anymore, or they cut corners and the new ones are now a piece 'o crap.
Does that thing have a display on it? That would be cool |
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Craven Sound
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 695
Location: Cambria County, PA
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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The read out is 31 sets of LEDs. There's flatline, plus 2 leds above and below flatline. I makes zero-ing a system really easy. And I think you're right about them not making it anymore, but I'm sure you can find one used on ebay.
Mike |
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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A 31 band RTA won't do you any good without a 31-band EQ, so if you don't have one, you can figure another $200 for a cheap used EQ. You could probably pick up an Alesis MEQ230 for $100, but you need little slots on your fingers to operate it.
The cheap used DOD RTAs go for about $200 on eBay, so you are up to $400
Of course, you will need a feedback eliminator because you won't want to mess up your newfound room EQ by using the EQ as an extremely inefficient feedback filter. You can figure around $200 for a cheap used stereo feedback filter. Your shopping cart is up to $600.
Do you have a compressor for the input to the EQ? You need to put some compression on the mixer's output to smooth out the peaks. You can get a cheap used stereo dbx compressor for $100. Of course, you will want to put a limiter on the output of the feedback filter to protect your poweramps and speakers...get another used dbx for $100.
Oh, what about the crossover? You can get a cheap used dbx for about $100. If you are going stereo 3-way, add $50.
Whats that? Your shopping cart is full of "cheap" stuff and costs $900-950!
I got my Driverack PA for $390, drop-shipped from dbx with full warranty from this guy on eBay:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=doug9504&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50
He has one at $345 right now, going up tonight.....
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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I think we need to go back to the title of this thread.
In modern times, EQ with RTA is NOT meant for controlling feedback and it WON'T control feedback. EQ with RTA is meant to make you sound good. Flattening a room will help a little with feedback, but your stage mics have nothing to do with the process.
What does EQ stand for? E-Q-U-A-L-I-Z-E-R. It gives you the ability to make the levels of the different frequencies EQUAL.
If you are having feedback problems, you need a good feedback filter, not an EQ system.
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Craven Sound
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 695
Location: Cambria County, PA
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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| True Lone Wolf, but the RTA will find those feedback frequencies easier than with the untrained ear. One more thing, why am I using a 31 band graph on my monitors? Not for flattening the frequency response, but for feedback control. Jusy my $.2 more. |
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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Monitor feedback is even harder to control than mains. Since I'm using a Driverack PA on my mains now, my Sabine FBX2020+ is now used for monitor feedback on my larger system. I have a little FBX SL-820 on my micro-system's monitor send as well. Once you have identified the top 10 problem frequencies with an FBX during setup, you don't have to worry about identifying them during the show. If you still get feedback after removing the top 10 feedback frequencies, you either need new microphones or you are simply TOO LOUD FOR THE ROOM.
So, to answer your question, I don't know why you are using a 31-band EQ as a feedback filter for your monitors. Its like using a knife to eat peas.
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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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| Damn Lonewolf....... I know a few of the people you get on and they are very accomplished. I admit I'm new to Pa gear simply because I always let everyone else run it , now I'm working with other people who haven't taken part in the Pa system. I ask questions for this reason and alot of other accomlished people on here help out in a very respectable manner. You obviously do alot of research and if you could share that in a slightly less arogant manner I think everyone could appreciate it a little more. Its almost as if you are on here to show everyone how much you know more than help out. Try a different approach and maybe you won't be the "Lonewolf" anymore ( aren't wolves supposed to run in a pack ) |
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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Tonefight, I intend to put myself in the same boat as you by running sound on stage as a performer, at least for now. I can see that you want to "set it and forget it". Having said that, your goal should be to PREVENT feedback from occurring, not fixing it after it happens. There are several ways to help prevent feedback. The 1st one you should look at is where the air hits the diaphragm.
What microphones are you using? Feedback problems can sometimes be solved by using the right mics in the right place. For instance, there is no place on a live rock stage for an omnidirectional microphone. Your highest level mics (preferably all your mics) should be HYPERCARDIOID pattern. This gives you the highest GAIN BEFORE FEEDBACK. I personally like Electrovoice ND757, ND767, and ND357 (great for female vocals), but most top end manufacturers make similar mics that reject feedback.
I was brought up on SM58s and still like their sound, but in a small venue at higher volumes, this classic mic can give in to feedback a lot quicker than the modern hypercardioids. Its not a matter of quality, its a matter of pickup pattern. Ask Big Jim about my fanatacism with this. After having several nights of feedback problems, to his astonishment, I unplugged his Beyer and shoved an ND357SB in front of him. The problems became more manageable, but we were just too damn loud anyway. The EV and the Beyer are both excellent sounding mics, but the EV just rejects feedback better.
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Wednesday Nov 05, 2003 |
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Tonefight, I don't recall "getting on" anybody. My reply to the monitor post wasn't any more pointed than its reply to my prior post, which, by the way, wasn't pointed at that poster, but was meant as an illustration to help you out.
I have not flamed anybody and do not intend to. If I disagree with something, I'll generally just state the differing opinion. That's what forums are all about. I personally feel that EQs are no longer the tool for feedback in small systems that they once were.
I suppose that I use more flamboyant styles (like E-Q-U-A-L-I-Z-E-R) to get certain key points across, but in this context (written words) it is difficult to emphasize things any other way. I apologize if I have offended you, because that is certainly not my intent.
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Thursday Nov 06, 2003 |
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I am a lone wolf by CHOICE and proud of it. Why would anyone want to run with the pack? The lone wolf is a rarity and fascinated Native Americans. If you do a yahoo search for "lone wolf", you will see that it fascinates just about everybody. I ran across this interesting little writeup about workplace personalities. It seemed appropriate:
"At one extreme is the Member of the Pack, whose standard response to every assignment will be to draw upon the ideas, advice, and cooperation of everyone who possibly can be involved in completing the effort. You fit this description if you habitually call for a meeting, are constantly involved with groups, or are comfortable joining ongoing activities. In effect, you act as a facilitator. You rely on others to contribute to the solution and commit yourself to striking a consensus or obtaining a plurality. In many work settings, this approach will efficiently solve the problem and complete the assignment."
"At the other extreme is the Lone Wolf. This person prefers to apply the homily 'I'd rather do it myself' to a challenge. You may fit this type of individual if you are apprehensive about group involvements. A lone wolf will diligently research policy manuals, examine documentation on related situations, delve into reference books, conduct lab experiments, etc. Having considered all available facts, the lone wolf will develop solutions by deductive reasoning and attempt to achieve objectives with a minimum of help from others. This approach can also be effective."
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Craven Sound
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 695
Location: Cambria County, PA
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| Posted: Thursday Nov 06, 2003 |
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| Thank-you for clarifying. Typically when I see somone typing in ALL CAPS, I take it as a big F-you; which in IM speak, all caps is considered yeling. |
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songsmith
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 6108
Location: The Wood of Bells
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| Posted: Thursday Nov 06, 2003 |
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My last band project was called Lone Wolf. Yeah, I know, how can you be a lone wolf if there are 4 of you... due to my inherent mental retardation, I hadn't thought of that before naming the band, and heard about on a pretty much weekly basis. DUH!
I named the band after a Hank Williams Jr. song that I saw Travis Tritt play on some show years ago... VERY cool song, dumb name for a band. Remember that movie, Airheads? The band was called "The Lone Rangers." At least it wasn't THAT dumb!------>JMS |
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Dave
Gold Member
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 186
Location: Bellwood, PA
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| Posted: Thursday Nov 06, 2003 |
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I started using a Driverack PA a few months ago and I have to say it is an amazing piece of gear. The Auto EQ and the Feedback suppression work perfectly. I use a Peavey 231Q Equalizer for the stage monitors. The 231Q has the FLS and is very easy to use.
I also picked up my DRPA for about $375.00, what a deal!
DW |
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Friday Nov 07, 2003 |
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Yep, the Driverack PA is great. There are a few things about the Driverack PA that you should know 1st before buying them:
1. It is a "set and forget" system. There's no faders, just buttons and a data wheel.
2. All the I/O are balanced XLR connectors. For best results, the outs on your mixer and the ins on your power amps should be balanced. You will need adapter cables if your present equipment has TRS balanced or (gulp) TS unbalanced 1/4" jacks.
3. The phantom power for the RTA mic input is only 15V. Many reference mics require 48V
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Ron
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2031
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Friday Nov 07, 2003 |
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One thing to watch when setting up a room with pink noise and an RTA is the room changing over the course of a night.
Usually you set up in a fairly empty room. As the room fills up with bodies, the sound of the room will change, especially if the high freq drivers aren't high enough above the crowd.
It is a good starting point though, and will point out any unusual peaks in a room.
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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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| Posted: Friday Nov 07, 2003 |
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Thanks everyone for the input, I guess everyone is happy that has bought a Dbx driverack. And as lonewolf mentioned if you look at the cost of seperate EQ, compressor, feedback eliminator etc its actually a good deal at $500 even. Plus it would lighten up your rack load.
Now does anyone use them for monitors also? If so, I know its 2 channel so if I bought one could I use 1 side for a monitor and 1 side to run the mains mono? I suppose since most mixers are set up for stereo everyone runs stereo but we good easily go mono since we have the same signal going left and right anyway.
2 of them would be a grand but thats probably cheaper than what most of you are running in your racks. |
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tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
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| Posted: Saturday Nov 08, 2003 |
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Another approach I'm considering for 2 reasons (ease of use and cash flow) Would be to shape the sound using the 9 band graphics that I currently have both on my main board and on the PA head I will be using for monitor power.Then purchase 2 feedback eliminators and 2 compressors to cover mains and monitors.We have used these Eq's without the compressor and feedback destroyer with minimal problems so I'm mainly looking to prevent problems, improve a little and cover my butt.
I know someone told me in an earlier post that you can get away with 15 bands on the mains but would need 31 on the monitors. Was this comment based on sound shaping or having control over problem frequencies?
I am considering 2 Behringer feedback destroyers and the Quad compressor they sell wich all together would be around $370 and cover me for both mains and monitors. Cash is a concern since I still need to purchase additional subs, another set of lights and a guitar wireless. |
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