This pisses me off.

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:10 am

I've heard that GM is filing bankruptcy. After all that time and money, they are gonna go and do this. This is what they should have done in the first place, instead of taking money and burning through it. That's fucked up. Yay, glad the fucking bailouts work!

Who didn't see this coming from a fucking thousand miles away?

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:06 am

Hmm, last I heard, they were canning the Pontiac line and were submitting their restructuring proposal on June 1st. That was of about 5 o'clock today.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:30 pm

Yeah, what the hell? I need a fuggin' bailout...I could've used one last week I'll tell you that. Sure am glad I'm a FORD man!!!

MOONDOGGY · Post by **MOONDOGGY** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:45 pm

I'd almost rather Chrysler to the same than work this merger with Fiat. The Daimler-Chrysler merger worked wonders for Chrysler. Their cars became classy all over again. But I can't imagine what would happen with Fiat-Chrysler. I don't think Fiat designs would be a good carry over to Chrysler!

slackin@dabass · Post by **slackin@dabass** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:44 pm

MOONDOGGY wrote:I'd almost rather Chrysler to the same than work this merger with Fiat. The Daimler-Chrysler merger worked wonders for Chrysler. Their cars became classy all over again. But I can't imagine what would happen with Fiat-Chrysler. I don't think Fiat designs would be a good carry over to Chrysler!

fiat has a history in racing in europe.

yea, i don't know what the hell kinda good that could do for chrysler either!

Baceman Spiff · Post by **Baceman Spiff** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:31 pm

The Government told them to file bankruptcy...

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6493189 ... index.html

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:00 pm

They are getting rid of Pontiac, and filing for bankruptcy if they do not have a plan by june 1st. The next on the chopping block is Buick, GMC, and Sabb. Pontiac hasn't had a profit for a couple of years now. They were going to scrap it in 2005 but change their minds ...

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:08 pm

Oh, and I agree that they should never have given them any of our money ! Force them to go into bankruptcy. All that money did was reward stupidity .. NEWT in 2012 - He will beat obama by a land slide.

Post by **Ron** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:47 am

We didn't really bail out GM. It was all gov't loans.

"On March 30, President Obama said GM would have 60 days to re-negotiate the terms of its restructuring plan with the UAW and bondholders, or else the Treasury would call back its loans and force the automaker into bankruptcy."

Naga · Post by **Naga** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:16 am

Yeah... We're giving a struggling American "roots" company loans, but we're actually GIVING a bunch of wealthy bankers tons of money and then slapping their hands when they blow it as if it was their yearly bonus... What's wrong with this picture?

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Rob you are so right! We should let the entire economy collapse and China can take over.

We shouldn't try saving anything / anyone ! Why should we ? It's my money ! I'd rather every bank and industry fail before they give them my money !

Let every industry move to China! If you don't have a job, it's your own fault ! You must be lazy!

Don't try to save anything because you are putting the debt onto the next generation. Hey, they can move to China if they want a job! At least they won't have debt to cover. No job - but no debt!

If you don't have heath insurance, to bad. (BTW I've been rejected by two companies so far for pre existing conditions - Acid reflux and allergies

. One company did offer to take me on if they never have to pay for Nexium

which I can't live without. ) Suck it up and walk it off !

But hey, why should I look to the government for help. I'll just go to the hospital when I'm sick and let ALL of you cover my bill.
.....................................................................................................
If you're handed an economy where everything is collapsing you have to TRY and save it. Some things will work, some things won't work . But you HAVE to try something as opposed to doing nothing.

Damn, is this a political thread ?

Sorry, I won't be back for the debate.

Post by **Ron** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:27 am

Hawk wrote:Rob you are so right! We should let the entire economy collapse and China can take over.

We shouldn't try saving anything / anyone ! Why should we ? It's my money ! I'd rather every bank and industry fail before they give them my money !

Let every industry move to China! If you don't have a job, it's your own fault ! You must be lazy!

Don't try to save anything because you are putting the debt onto the next generation. Hey, they can move to China if they want a job! At least they won't have debt to cover. No job - but no debt!

If you don't have heath insurance, to bad. (BTW I've been rejected by two companies so far for pre existing conditions - Acid reflux and allergies . One company did offer to take me on if they never have to pay for Nexium which I can't live without. ) Suck it up and walk it off !

But hey, why should I look to the government for help. I'll just go to the hospital when I'm sick and let ALL of you cover my bill.
.....................................................................................................
If you're handed an economy where everything is collapsing you have to TRY and save it. Some things will work, some things won't work . But you HAVE to try something as opposed to doing nothing.

Damn, is this a political thread ? Sorry, I won't be back for the debate.

Bill, you can live without Nexium. Prilosec OTC is basically the same chemical. Look at the labels. If you have a doctor who is telling you differently, call foul.
If you are using Nexium to fix GERD, then your best bet is to try eating differently instead of using a chemical band-aid. I used to not be able to sleep at night because of GERD. I was in pain all of the time. I tried the "purple pill" a few times, and it helped, as did Prilosec, although Nexium seemed to work a little bit faster. I haven't taken either in a long time because I started eating healthier... not a "diet" but just more good stuff, mainly food without chemical preservatives. My health insurance won't pay for Nexium either, mainly because they know that Prilosec OTC is basically the same thing. Thankfully I changed my bad eating habits and now I don't need either of them. To turn down a health insurance company just because they won't cover Nexium is not a wise decision.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic ...

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:35 am

Ron wrote:
Hawk wrote:Rob you are so right! We should let the entire economy collapse and China can take over.

We shouldn't try saving anything / anyone ! Why should we ? It's my money ! I'd rather every bank and industry fail before they give them my money !

Let every industry move to China! If you don't have a job, it's your own fault ! You must be lazy!

Don't try to save anything because you are putting the debt onto the next generation. Hey, they can move to China if they want a job! At least they won't have debt to cover. No job - but no debt!

If you don't have heath insurance, to bad. (BTW I've been rejected by two companies so far for pre existing conditions - Acid reflux and allergies . One company did offer to take me on if they never have to pay for Nexium which I can't live without. ) Suck it up and walk it off !

But hey, why should I look to the government for help. I'll just go to the hospital when I'm sick and let ALL of you cover my bill.
.....................................................................................................
If you're handed an economy where everything is collapsing you have to TRY and save it. Some things will work, some things won't work . But you HAVE to try something as opposed to doing nothing.

Damn, is this a political thread ? Sorry, I won't be back for the debate.
Bill, you can live without Nexium. Prilosec OTC is basically the same chemical. Look at the labels. If you have a doctor who is telling you differently, call foul.
If you are using Nexium to fix GERD, then your best bet is to try eating differently instead of using a chemical band-aid. I used to not be able to sleep at night because of GERD. I was in pain all of the time. I tried the "purple pill" a few times, and it helped, as did Prilosec, although Nexium seemed to work a little bit faster. I haven't taken either in a long time because I started eating healthier... not a "diet" but just more good stuff, mainly food without chemical preservatives. My health insurance won't pay for Nexium either, mainly because they know that Prilosec OTC is basically the same thing. Thankfully I changed my bad eating habits and now I don't need either of them. To turn down a health insurance company just because they won't cover Nexium is not a wise decision.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic ...

Thanks Ron. Actually I do eat a lot of junk. Now might be a good time for a change.

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:02 am

Our car companies have nothing to do with China. Sink or swim, what happened to the car companies anyway?

TheBMC · Post by **TheBMC** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:22 pm

I agree Rob,... they never should have recieved a bailout... Unfortunatly our wonderful government thought they were to big of a company to let them fail... but the reality is if they let them go in the first place our government would have saved loads of cash and all of those unemployed would have spawned off into small businesses. the others would go work for them or learn another profession... that's typically what happens. Oh well... Our government thinks fixing debt with debt is the answer... they will keep that press spitting out money. It's a great time to save your pennies and get away from any credit cards and loans you have because that will only make it difficult while we(congress) digs a deeper hole for us for a while......

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:00 pm

TheBMC wrote: but the reality is if they let them go in the first place our government would have saved loads of cash and all of those unemployed would have spawned off into small businesses. the others would go work for them or learn another profession... that's typically what happens.

Regardless of whether or not the government should have given bail out money to the auto industry, that's a pretty elementary view of the labor market. Many of the people to be laid off are middle-aged, semi-skilled professionals in which their abilities are only generalizable to a sector that has been shrinking for the past two decades. Couple that with the fact that the economy is interrelated and a large entity such as GM failing would utimately destroy other jobs that the newly laid-off could have migrated too. The United States manufacturing base has been driven to practical non-existence, and as a result, has been helpful in destroying the middle class that it created during the middle of the 20th Century. A laid-off machinist probably has three immediate courses of action: 1. Start a business, as you stated, which may be likely if the person has enough business sense and there is a demand for the product; 2. Luck into another machinist gig, with the word "luck" as the important defining operator, or; 3. Go stock shelves at Target, which is probably what a lot would end up doing. The younger ones have a decent shot to start over, but it gets a lot more difficult to start over when your older. Yes, the ADEA gives older workers seeking employment some protection, but the burden is still on them to establish a prima facie case, which is something that many just are not going to pursue. Most importantly, your logic would be simple if this were only a problem isolated to one industry in the economy. Many companies are currently having hiring freezes, AT BEST!

Regardless, this is a complex problem that affects every sector, and a solution as simple as "throw bail out money at it" or "don't throw bail out money at it" isn't going to fix our whoas.

TheBMC · Post by **TheBMC** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:24 pm

bassist_25 wrote:
TheBMC wrote: but the reality is if they let them go in the first place our government would have saved loads of cash and all of those unemployed would have spawned off into small businesses. the others would go work for them or learn another profession... that's typically what happens.
Regardless of whether or not the government should have given bail out money to the auto industry, that's a pretty elementary view of the labor market. Many of the people to be laid off are middle-aged, semi-skilled professionals in which their abilities are only generalizable to a sector that has been shrinking for the past two decades. Couple that with the fact that the economy is interrelated and a large entity such as GM failing would utimately destroy other jobs that the newly laid-off could have migrated too. The United States manufacturing base has been driven to practical non-existence, and as a result, has been helpful in destroying the middle class that it created during the middle of the 20th Century. A laid-off machinist probably has three immediate courses of action: 1. Start a business, as you stated, which may be likely if the person has enough business sense and there is a demand for the product; 2. Luck into another machinist gig, with the word "luck" as the important defining operator, or; 3. Go stock shelves at Target, which is probably what a lot would end up doing. The younger ones have a decent shot to start over, but it gets a lot more difficult to start over when your older. Yes, the ADEA gives older workers seeking employment some protection, but the burden is still on them to establish a prima facie case, which is something that many just are not going to pursue. Most importantly, your logic would be simple if this were only a problem isolated to one industry in the economy. Many companies are currently having hiring freezes, AT BEST!

Regardless, this is a complex problem that affects every sector, and a solution as simple as "throw bail out money at it" or "don't throw bail out money at it" isn't going to fix our whoas.

Absolutly... I don't disagree with you about the directions that people could go or may have to go, I don't think it is fair for those folks and I would not want to be in that position. I also agree that it is very complex and over my head...way over it. But I do think that enough thought was not put into the bailouts, I don't think that the mini projects are exceptable. I also know that the bailout was about 15 hours of reading and they were given 24 hours to read it prior to the vote... which i'm sure was not suitable and probably not read properly. I think it was a waste of money to bail them out and that they should not have done so,... I think generations to come will be paying for it.

But, you are correct my outlook is mostly my opinion which is "elementary" and some odds and ends i've picked up from reading and talking to others...

One thing I do know for sure is that I would hate to be in those shoes at the moment as would anyone I suppose.

JackANSI · Post by **JackANSI** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:52 pm

It really sucks because I heard the Pontiac G8 GXP is one mean mo-fo of a car. Basically a Camaro (same chassis) with all the crap that makes the Camaro slow and soft, fixed.

Yes the new Camaro is a soft, american market, tired 'old' piece of crap that can't compete with the rest of the cars in its class.

The new Mustang and 300C/Charger/Challenger are also already showing their age on the production car world stage...

If you don't believe me, go drive a BMW 135i (Nicely done up with navigation and 6year/100,000 mile free maintenance package/warranty for $42,000). Then go drive a similar coupe from any of the american makers (Mustang GT, Charger/Challenger R/T, or the G8 GT (has the best shot at beating the BMW!)). Yes, the BMW is going to cost a bit more than similarly equipped US cars, but its closer than you think when you pile on everything to equal the features and build quality of that BMW. The engine in that 135i is light years ahead of anything the american makers are putting in their cars...

Just go for a test drive and you'll see my point really, really quick. Then if you want to really even the field, add in the price for shipping your american model overseas to Germany and subtract that from the BMW. Then you'll see why american made cars don't sell well in the rest of the world..

(Yes I have a thing for BMW's... The 'wanker' automobile. Ever since I drove a M3, I've been sold. Nothing compares to driving along and 'thinking' you're not even doing the speed limit of 65 only to look down and find that you're pushing 105mph. Its just that smooth. but the instant you need to avoid something or take a turn, the car obeys without any soft, hesitant feeling. Someday I'll track down a good cheap M3, just waiting till my mid-life crisis hits....)

I'm happier than ever because muscle cars are back. But they still handicap them (in the eyes of overseas buyers as well as mine) with ridiculously soft handling, and a boring/lazy feel behind the wheel.

Pontiac has made some of the most exciting american cars to drive in the last 4-5 years (starting with the 2005 GTO).

GM should never have tried to keep a billion brands alive in the first place... They should have just made everything they aquired "Chevy" or "GM". Instead of keeping close to 44-50 seperate models (not including trucks, some sharing a base chassis, most not) alive in what, 7 brands?

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:38 pm

Ron wrote:We didn't really bail out GM. It was all gov't loans.

"On March 30, President Obama said GM would have 60 days to re-negotiate the terms of its restructuring plan with the UAW and bondholders, or else the Treasury would call back its loans and force the automaker into bankruptcy."

Yep, its loans all right. Prior to the government loans, GM bondholders held the senior debt and would have become the new majority owners in any standard restructuring plan. That would probably have occurred sometime in January with a little government oversight. Typically, these things are done in a planned, orderly manner.

Along comes the government, loans them a little more than half the present value of the bonds and tides them over for a few months. Sadly, the government will now become majority owners in any restructuring. Not only that, the subordinate UAW debt with about half of the bondholders' original stake, will get 39% ownership of the restructured company. I wonder who came up with that scenario? The bondholders get stuck with 10%. This is a powerplay that even beats anything Michael Milken and Carl Icahn dreamed up.

What this leaves is the US Government and the UAW with 89% ownership of GM. That should bring great joy to any anti-capitalist/socialists.

US Government -- $15.4 billion -- 50% new ownership
Bondholders -- $27 billion -- 10% new ownership
UAW Healthcare Trust -- $20 billion -- 39% new ownership
Shareholders $1.1 billion -- 1% (they are lucky to get anything)

The market cap of GM today is $1.1 billion or roughly 1/5 the value of M & T Bank!

TheBMC · Post by **TheBMC** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:58 pm

lonewolf wrote:
Ron wrote:We didn't really bail out GM. It was all gov't loans.

"On March 30, President Obama said GM would have 60 days to re-negotiate the terms of its restructuring plan with the UAW and bondholders, or else the Treasury would call back its loans and force the automaker into bankruptcy."
Yep, its loans all right. Prior to the government loans, GM bondholders held the senior debt and would have become the new majority owners in any standard restructuring plan. That would probably have occurred sometime in January with a little government oversight. Typically, these things are done in a planned, orderly manner.

Along comes the government, loans them a little more than half the present value of the bonds and tides them over for a few months. Sadly, the government will now become majority owners in any restructuring. Not only that, the subordinate UAW debt with about half of the bondholders' original stake, will get 39% ownership of the restructured company. I wonder who came up with that scenario? The bondholders get stuck with 10%. This is a powerplay that even beats anything Michael Milken and Carl Icahn dreamed up.

What this leaves is the US Government and the UAW with 89% ownership of GM. That should bring great joy to any anti-capitalist/socialists.

US Government -- $15.4 billion -- 50% new ownership
Bondholders -- $27 billion -- 10% new ownership
UAW Healthcare Trust -- $20 billion -- 39% new ownership
Shareholders $1.1 billion -- 1% (they are lucky to get anything)

The market cap of GM today is $1.1 billion or roughly 1/5 the value of M & T Bank!

That is interesting... so what happens if they do file bankruptcy? Do they still have to repay the loan or do they get a clean slate? I guess based on Ron's info they simply lose the money that was granted to them as a loan... is that correct?

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:20 pm

The only Pontiac I ever liked was KIT ... I have a grand am now and can not wait to get rid of it ..

Colton · Post by **Colton** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:22 pm

f.sciarrillo wrote:I have a grand am now and can not wait to get rid of it ..

Me too!

Really just wanna get something else. Car's actually pretty decent except that fuggin passengers side window thats offtrack that everyone who gets in my car has to crank down.

I'd just like to get out of the payment. Buy a van.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:41 pm

TheBMC wrote:That is interesting... so what happens if they do file bankruptcy? Do they still have to repay the loan or do they get a clean slate? I guess based on Ron's info they simply lose the money that was granted to them as a loan... is that correct?

That post is the proposed plan for restructuring which would be, in effect, a coordinated bankruptcy. The bondholders are pissed and may not agree with the proposed plan. If that happens and they can't come up with a new agreement between all parties, GM will probably file for bankruptcy at the end of May and let the bankruptcy court sort it all out.

Its hard to tell how a court would decide, but chances are, the government would still be majority owner and bondholders would replace the UAW as #2 owner. The common stockholders will probably get a sheet of fancy looking toilet paper that has "General Motors Corporation" printed on it.

The company would have a clean slate.

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:02 pm

Colton wrote:
f.sciarrillo wrote:I have a grand am now and can not wait to get rid of it ..

Me too!

Really just wanna get something else. Car's actually pretty decent except that fuggin passengers side window thats offtrack that everyone who gets in my car has to crank down.

I'd just like to get out of the payment. Buy a van.

My main complaint is that everywhere I look I see one. When I was going to penn state altoona there were five in the parking lot that were the same color and design as mine. I had to push the panic alarm to find mine ! I get out of the parking lot and count ten more on the way home.

It runs decent, I am just tired of seeing so many of them. And I want something that no one else really has. I am seriously thinking about a mini van, which I never thought I would ...

JackANSI · Post by **JackANSI** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:34 pm

f.sciarrillo wrote: It runs decent, I am just tired of seeing so many of them. And I want something that no one else really has. I am seriously thinking about a mini van, which I never thought I would ...

I remember years ago (shortly after the Ram SRT-10 came out) that the SRT arm was going to work over a SRT Caravan with a supercharged V6 pushing 350hp, AWD, and power everything.

I would put that minivan in my driveway anyday...