Is it taboo to ask what a band makes at a venue ?

[Hawk]

Is it taboo to ask what a band makes at a venue ?

If a band is new to a venue, having a general idea of what the bar pays is helpful. You don't want to play for a below average wage, nor do you want to ask for too much. Of course what you draw (how much money you make for the bar) is a considered factor.

If band A draws 500 and band B draws 50, they can't expect the same pay scale.

I've heard musicians complain about being undercut. And bands playing for next to nothing. I've heard musicians say it's not about the money, they love to play so much they would (do) play for nothing. Others won't play unless they take home $100 or more. I can see both sides of the argument.

This thread is twofold. The "asking taboo" and this:

I was talking to someone (RP member who doesn't post much - fear of flaming , huh, go figure) who is a member of the musicians union. He was telling me that in State College the union was trying to come up with a minimum wage for clubs and bars. Not a lot, because there are variables. But say each band member is never going to walk away with less than $50 - $60.

I'm sure many of you regularly make a lot more, you don't need to point that out. I was just wondering what your thoughts were.

Then, as I understand it, they ask some bars to agree to this minimum. Some did. The union is making up plaques to hang in said bars, noting their commitment to supporting live music.

So what are your thoughts on:

Divulging how much you make at a venue (in private, not on a forum) ?
What you think of bands that play for nothing, or next to nothing ?
The Union minimum wage scenario ?

[DirtySanchez]

I think that divulging that info is asking for trouble. Just because you know someone will throw it in the club owners face as soon as their band doesn't get as much as "Band A". Even if they didn't have the draw. Then "Band A" may not get booked again, because of it.

Sorta why most companies don't let employees discuss how much they make.

As far as the undercutting thing goes: It happens everywhere else. Grocery Stores/retail/car lots/garages/construction..you name it. You just have to sell quality,loyalty,respect,professionalism etc. to combat it. The saying, "you get what you pay for" holds true in music too.

The union thing- More power to them.

[Hawk]

I think that divulging that info is asking for trouble. Just because you know someone will throw it in the club owners face as soon as their band doesn't get as much

Good point.

[bassist_25]

Divulging how much you make at a venue (in private, not on a forum) ?

I'll tell friends about good paying rooms, and likewise, I've had friends tell me the same thing. We usually don't discuss exact dollar and cents, but I'll let people know about good rooms. Despite the stereotype of music being a cutthroat business, I like to see my friends and colleagues do well. Plus, it helps us out. I want a kick ass band on stage at a venue every night that we're not playing there. That way, I know that the crowd will be consistent.

What you think of bands that play for nothing, or next to nothing ?

A brand new band probably isn't going to make a lot. A band that plays really far out there music probably isn't going to make much either. It's the nature of the beast, and in my experience, even being in an established band doesn't mean that you are protected from tanking once in a while when it's a door gig. If a band decides to play really out there music, split a bill with two other bands, and walk away with $30, then there's nothing wrong with that. If they're digging what they're doing, then who I am to judge how they use their talent?

I do have to shake my head extra hard at bands that bend over, though, just to get on stage and do things like sell tickets to be part of a Battle of the Bands for back alley promoters and such. It doesn't piss me off at the bands (the shiftee promoters are a different story), but it kind of makes me want to shake them for being so naive.

The Union minimum wage scenario ?

I've touched upon this before, but I still don't quite understand how the musician's union works, since we're most likely considered independent contracters and we haven't won a certification campaign in any particular venue. Likewise, if you have a band leader, could that person be a union member, since they'd be considered a manager under the Taft-Hartley Act? If the Employee Free Choice Act comes to pass, I guess I could see some loophole with doing card check to get recognized everytime you walk into a venue. Like I said, I just don't totally understand it. I'm not saying it's illegitimate; I'm just saying that I don't understand how it works. But anyways...

I could see good and bad. On one hand, you'd be guaranteed a certain amount of money at every gig. On the other hand, it may be difficult for newer bands and bands playing less popular styles of music to get their feet in the doors of some places that don't want to take a risk.

[4_the_pocket]

Is it taboo to ask what a band makes at a venue ?

I was talking to someone (RP member who doesn't post much - fear of flaming , huh, go figure) who is a member of the musicians union. He was telling me that in State College the union was trying to come up with a minimum wage for clubs and bars. Not a lot, because there are variables. But say each band member is never going to walk away with less than $50 - $60.

I'm sure many of you regularly make a lot more, you don't need to point that out. I was just wondering what your thoughts were.

Good topic Bill.

The first question: I dont like to be asked how much I make unless you are a really good friend. Im surprised how often I get asked this question. I always politely say, "that is between you and the club and what do you think you deserve?" I will sometimes throw out a range, but generally its asked by a newer band or someone trying to make top dollar first time in a new club. Fans who ask - its nonya dang bidness! I would never ask someone how much they make at their day job...dont ask me. Its rude.

The second question: I know the "union" is trying to establish itself in State College. Ill never join it. I know a few folks who are all about it, and "in general" they are not in the top drawing bands or they are in genres that dont have opportunities to play a lot in town; think jazz, some blues, big band, etc. - older guys. This 50-60$ minimum in my opinion is going to give clubs the idea that its going to be a "standard". I already know of one such club in SC who is trying to go this route and pay on a sliding scale per man. I know one of the "big movers" behind establishing the union and he doesnt know his ass from a whole in the ground and is a hack musician. Some of the other guys I know are good people whom I respect and I can understand why a union benefits them.

I know this will rub a few on here the wrong way, but unless youve walked a mile in my shoes.... Playin for 50-60$ a night is not worth me getting off my couch and wasting a whole night. Ill do it on occasion for a good reason, but not regularly.

Then, as I understand it, they ask some bars to agree to this minimum. Some did. The union is making up plaques to hang in said bars, noting their commitment to supporting live music.

Not sure how I feel about this one. A plaque huh? Hey, whatever as long as the club isnt holding my band to the "minimum". If band A is putting asses in the seats on a regular basis, then they should be duly compensated and its up to band A to negotiate a price thats fair to themselves and the club. Im not in favor of giving minimums to bands who havent paid their dues or cant put asses in the seats. Do it like the rest of us have done it without the unions all these years. I say its bad precedent.

So what are your thoughts on:

Divulging how much you make at a venue (in private, not on a forum) ?
What you think of bands that play for nothing, or next to nothing ?
The Union minimum wage scenario ?

1. Definitely not on a forum. Maybe in private if youre close to that person.

2. Bands playing for nothing does little good for themselves or the scene. Sometimes its a necessary evil in the beginning. When you book yourself for next to nothing you are sending a message to whomever is booking you that you are worth next to nothing. You get what you pay for in most cases. Not every band is going to be successful. It takes a lot of hard work to be a successful band and make money at it. If it didnt, then everyone who plays guitar hero would be out doing it - ha ha - kidding.

3. Complete BS in my humble opinion. It is not a one size fits all fix and has the potential to help a small group of musicians and potentially hurt a larger group. If there needs to be a pay scale for orchestra pits and that sort of thing, then so be it. Keep it out of the "rock" type clubs because its not needed.

[4_the_pocket]

State College's AFM Local 660

http://www.afm660.org/

As I said, I know and respect some of these guys and consider them friends. One of them.....welllllll

So check it out and see if its for you.

[Hawk]

Paul, Steve, Brian, thanks for the imput.

[JackANSI]

This 50-60$ minimum in my opinion is going to give clubs the idea that its going to be a "standard".

Yeah a minimum can be a double edged sword. Some clubs might get the idea that is all they are on the hook for no matter what.

[dayzichick]

I know in the Johnstown scene at least, bands who will play for nothing really hurt the bands that are trying to make money or trying to do music for a living. The attitude of most local bar owners around here is "why would I hire you for X amount of dollars, when I can get this group for $200". I said to one bar owner in particular "well because you want a quality group don't you?" He said, "I don't care how talented you are, talent doesn't matter, what matters is are my seats filled." So I guess talent doesn't matter. So the lowballers are killing the rest of us around here to the club owners that think like that. That's why we have pulled out of a lot of bars and are doing more special events now. I'd rather know that the people who hire us value us and our talent.

[bassist_25]

Good point about people thinking they only have to pay the minimum. Of course, one has to wonder if the laws of capitalism would nullify that anyways. In other words, would a club still be willing to pay extra for a band that brings in more dollars? I've been told by people - not sure how true it is - that musicians who play the Grand Ole Opry always make standard scale, which isn't that much considering the pedigree of that gig.

It's an interesting discussion, regardless.

[f.sciarrillo]

Musicians Union ? Well, that can mean union dues and self employment taxes. Make a minimum of $60 a night and $40 of that goes for said mentioned.

[Hawk]

Musicians Union ? Well, that can mean union dues and self employment taxes. Make a minimum of $60 a night and $40 of that goes for said mentioned.

Are you reporting known facts or stirring the pot ?

[4_the_pocket]

Musicians Union ? Well, that can mean union dues and self employment taxes. Make a minimum of $60 a night and $40 of that goes for said mentioned.

Are you reporting known facts or stirring the pot ?

There are dues. Its listed on their homepage along with their bylaws. To be honest, the dues seem modest (less than $100) a year. You have to pay self employment taxes anyway depending on if your an LLC and all that crap. Not sure about getting a 1099. Ill find out this year about that

A lot of questions about the State College local can be answered if you check out the link I posted.

[Colton]

My neck hurts from shaking my head at that website. Slightly dizzy as well.

[Hawk]

Paying taxes is another topic perhaps. But I know musicians who got caught not paying, and were hit hard by the IRS.

Since I'm already self employed, I will just add gig money to my other income.

I don't expect anyone to say what they do...the IRS might be watching.

But we might discuss it as a hypothetical situation.

[f.sciarrillo]

Musicians Union ? Well, that can mean union dues and self employment taxes. Make a minimum of $60 a night and $40 of that goes for said mentioned.

Are you reporting known facts or stirring the pot ?

Not stirring the pot, just saying based on common grounds for this type of thing.

[Hawk]

Musicians Union ? Well, that can mean union dues and self employment taxes. Make a minimum of $60 a night and $40 of that goes for said mentioned.

Are you reporting known facts or stirring the pot ?

Not stirring the pot, just saying based on common grounds for this type of thing.

Not really. The membership is about $84 a year and musicians SHOULD be paying taxes on income anyhow. So if one plays 30 times a year it would cost him $2.80 per gig to be a member.

I'm not saying to join. Just that $40 per gig is a bit off the mark.

[f.sciarrillo]

Are you reporting known facts or stirring the pot ?

Not stirring the pot, just saying based on common grounds for this type of thing.

Not really. The membership is about $84 a year and musicians SHOULD be paying taxes on income anyhow. So if one plays 30 times a year it would cost him $2.80 per gig to be a member.

I'm not saying to join. Just that $40 per gig is a bit off the mark.

Yeah, it was a little off. I was just making a point that most of the money will be gone. Whether it be from the union dues or from the taxes; or both combined ... I guess I should have worded it better..

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Listening to: Van Halen - Mine All Mine

[JackANSI]

Good point about people thinking they only have to pay the minimum. Of course, one has to wonder if the laws of capitalism would nullify that anyways. In other words, would a club still be willing to pay extra for a band that brings in more dollars?

The laws of capitalism also bring the opposite to the table. If they are willing to pay more for a potentially better product, great, but if everyone costs the same price and would get the same job done, why pay more?

[hicksjd9]

The only way a union works is if EVERYONE is on board. With so many projects starting, regrouping, and falling apart, it would be very hard to have a union. In addition, we would all have to get tax id's for our bands as someone mentioned earlier. Also, considering how far many bands travel to play you would pretty much have to have every band in the entire state of PA involved. It would be a giant undertaking.

Beyond that, we have to offer a service that is in demand and irreplaceable. It's obvious, looking at DJs, mechanical bulls, etc., that bars can easily find other effective forms of entertainment to replace us.

[lonewolf]

Is it taboo to ask what a band makes at a venue ?

Nah, you can ask all you want.

Answering in anything other than broad terms is a bad idea.

[JayBird]

If you're lucky enough to get signed and on the national touring circuit...ha...when you start touring you can expect about $50-$150 per show TOTAL! That's a whole new ball game.

[Hawk]

If you're lucky enough to get signed and on the national touring circuit...ha...when you start touring you can expect about $50-$150 per show TOTAL! That's a whole new ball game.

I'm missing your point.

[RobTheDrummer]

I could care less what your band makes at a show, I know what mine does and that's what counts.


Never been too fond of unions, they tend to destroy things. Then what happens if you are in a non-union band if this all goes official? I sure as hell don't wanna be forced to pay union dues and taxes on playing music. That's too much like work.

[Hawk]

I could care less what your band makes at a show, I know what mine does and that's what counts.


Never been too fond of unions, they tend to destroy things. Then what happens if you are in a non-union band if this all goes official? I sure as hell don't wanna be forced to pay union dues and taxes on playing music. That's too much like work.

Rob, you already HAVE to pay taxes to play music. It's taxable income. If you don't, and get caught, you'll be sorry.

When the right to work laws passed, I quit the musicians union. You can't be forced to join such a union. However, banding together can be a good thing. In a sence, that's what DirtySanchez is attempting to do.
To band musicians together for a common good. Instead of dues there is a benefit.