Is it taboo to ask what a band makes at a venue ?

Flaw · Post by **Flaw** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:43 am

We dont file our taxes in The Side Effects...we let sony records handle that business.

P MAC · Post by **P MAC** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:34 am

I belonged to the musician's union once upon a long time ago. I joined b/c a band I joined was playing a circuit that required bands to be in the union. My experience was that the union was self serving and did nothing of value for it's members. While I was a member, a venue I was playing at burned to the ground. I lost all of my gear and most of my personal belongings as I was staying at the place for the two weeks the band was booked. I contacted the union to see if they could help in any way like maybe provide an atty to assist with recovering my losses etc. The response from the union was essentially too bad, sorry for your situation, let us know how you make out. I will never support a local musician's union. It is, in my opinion, an unnecessary entity. In a bigger market it may be a different situation, but locally and regionally not necessary in my opinion.

As for pay scale; I believe that a band or musician is worth what the market will bare based on talent, draw etc. I have a lot of time and energy invested in developing my craft not to metion the dollars invested in gear. Most club owners I have dealt with over the years have been willing to compensate a band that draws consistently for the venue, and all bands do not necessarily make the same money at a given venue. This is how it should be. It has also been my experience that if I present a quality product, people will come to hear it, and opportunities to perform for fair market value will follow. Bands that play for free or undercut other bands really only hurt themselves in the long run. Most of the talented musicians I know are compensated for their time and efforts and would not stay long term in a situation that was otherwise.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:14 pm

Hawk, did you live in another state some time ago? Pennsylvania's not a right to work state.

My father was a member of the union for a little while back in the day. I think he got two gigs out of it. I haven't been compelled to join it. And like I said, I still don't understand how it works in a situation like most of us are in (i.e., independent contractors who haven't won a certification campaign in the clubs). If I were doing orchestra work or was a free-lancer, I may look into the benefits of joining. Most of the stories I hear paint the musician's union as ineffective. I'm sure there are some success stories, and I'd like to hear them.

P MAC wrote:
As for pay scale; I believe that a band or musician is worth what the market will bare based on talent, draw etc. I have a lot of time and energy invested in developing my craft not to metion the dollars invested in gear. Most club owners I have dealt with over the years have been willing to compensate a band that draws consistently for the venue, and all bands do not necessarily make the same money at a given venue. This is how it should be. It has also been my experience that if I present a quality product, people will come to hear it, and opportunities to perform for fair market value will follow. Bands that play for free or undercut other bands really only hurt themselves in the long run. Most of the talented musicians I know are compensated for their time and efforts and would not stay long term in a situation that was otherwise.

Totally agree on all points.

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:33 pm

I never said I was pro musicians union. I only opened a discussion on the State College Musicians Union and what they are doing. I, like you, want to know more about it.

As for the opening post. I was wondering if it was wrong to ask what you get at a venue. Common sence says draw = pay scale.

But I don't want to go in to a bar and ask for $200, undercutting every one's AVERAGE of $600. Which is what the thread title encompassed.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:52 pm

Hawk wrote:I never said I was pro musicians union. I only opened a discussion on the State College Musicians Union and what they are doing. I, like you, want to know more about it.

I never implied that you were, either way, Bill. I'm neither pro-union nor anti-union either, as the potential of my day gig career could go in the direction of being a mediator, arbitrator, or working for the NLRB. Plus, I'm just can't be an idealogue for any one position.

But I don't want to go in to a bar and ask for $200, undercutting every one's AVERAGE of $600. Which is what the thread title encompassed.

If you're a popular band asking for $200, then it's definitely time to read some literature from Robert Fischer and William Ury because you suck at negotiations. But what defines the average? Are all band's making the $600? Is it only the top draws that are making $600? If you're a new band in an overcrowded market, then maybe the $200 isn't that far off for a first gig.

4_the_pocket · Post by **4_the_pocket** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:15 pm

Hawk wrote:I never said I was pro musicians union. I only opened a discussion on the State College Musicians Union and what they are doing. I, like you, want to know more about it.

As for the opening post. I was wondering if it was wrong to ask what you get at a venue. Common sence says draw = pay scale.

But I don't want to go in to a bar and ask for $200, undercutting every one's AVERAGE of $600. Which is what the thread title encompassed.

Bill, not sure if youre asking a rhetorical question or you need a guide on how much to ask for a club. Below is a pretty simple formula that will get you in the ball park of what to ask for at a venue.

Example scenario:

Band A - been around for a year or so has a decent draw locally looking to get into a club for the first time.

Club of interest: 150 capacity and charges $3-5 depending on the band and has a somewhat "built in" crowd.

Band A can assume a $3 cover since they are new to the club. An average night at the venue is half capacity and you KNOW you can bring 20 people. (75+20)(3) = $285

Thats a ballpark figure and there are other variables, but you get the idea. You can also see the potential of future growth and money earning potential at that club.

DirtySanchez · Post by **DirtySanchez** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:51 pm

Steve that was very clear and easy to understand.

And I'm not a mathlete by any stretch.

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:35 pm

The whole idea for this thread came to mind when I ask (my friend) RobTheDrummer what he was getting at the Snop Shop for a Wednesday night. Now since we're friends, he had no problem telling me. But then I began to ask myself (and Rob) about it being taboo to ask.

Someone told me about the S/C union so I added that to the thread.

So the questions are rhetorical, in that, I was curious what other's thought of the taboo. That's all. Figured it would make a good discussion.