I will agree with the heal care bill if ....

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:50 am

These following things are stricken from it.

1. Government funded abortions
2. A public Option

and it has to include Tort Reform

I will agree more if they take those things out and regulate the insurance companies prices, and keep the frivolous lawsuits down. You look at the price of insurance now, it is mostly because of the malpractice insurance the doctor has to carry. Stop the stupid lawsuits and the prices will go down ..

This is a capitalist nation. Having a public option is not an option. Besides, isn't Medical Card a public option?

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:24 am

Under those condiitions: Its DOA

Deja Vu...its 1993 all over again.

This is the progressive movement's last hurrah for 12 more years...

Isn't America great!?

slackin@dabass · Post by **slackin@dabass** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:11 pm

f.sciarrillo wrote:This is a capitalist nation. Having a public option is not an option. Besides, isn't Medical Card a public option?

that's how i feel. russia's first 2 steps towards communism? nationalized banking system and public healthcare. we spent from 1945 to 1989 trying to keep the world from becoming communist.

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:36 pm

Yeah ! Lets keep 10 million without health care ! I'm afraid of government run anything ! I'm Paranoid ! Let's end medicare ! Let everyone who gets dropped from health care go into bankruptcy, that's the American way ! Yeaaahh ! Let's let the insurance industry decide who gets what ! That's the capitalist way ! Let's not do anything, it's perfect the way it is ! I'm so happy I live in he USA where capitalistic insurance agents decide if I get health care or not ! Medicare and government run health care for veterns suck ! I'd much rather the uninsured go to Emergency and KEEP my premiums high ! My tax money pays for your grandmothers operation and that just wrong in a capitalistic society ! I hate that ! My neighbor is dying from cancer, his insurance company dropped him, YES that's how insurance run health care should work ! He'll owe Hundreds of Thousands, No problem, just raise my premiums to cover that $ the hospital lost ! LIFE IS GOOD, AS LONG AS IT IS THE OTHER GUY WHO IS GETTING SCREWED !

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:20 pm

Hawk wrote:Yeah ! Lets keep 10 million without health care ! I'm afraid of government run anything ! I'm Paranoid ! Let's end medicare ! Let everyone who gets dropped from health care go into bankruptcy, that's the American way ! Yeaaahh ! Let's let the insurance industry decide who gets what ! That's the capitalist way ! Let's not do anything, it's perfect the way it is ! I'm so happy I live in he USA where capitalistic insurance agents decide if I get health care or not ! Medicare and government run health care for veterns suck ! I'd much rather the uninsured go to Emergency and KEEP my premiums high ! My tax money pays for your grandmothers operation and that just wrong in a capitalistic society ! I hate that ! My neighbor is dying from cancer, his insurance company dropped him, YES that's how insurance run health care should work ! He'll owe Hundreds of Thousands, No problem, just raise my premiums to cover that $ the hospital lost ! LIFE IS GOOD, AS LONG AS IT IS THE OTHER GUY WHO IS GETTING SCREWED !

Ya know. I would like to meet you in person and have a drink or two with ya. We could have some great debates lol ...

That being said: Having a public option is a closer step to socialism. Look at those ten million whow aren't insured. It is there option to not be not mine. This is America, we all have the choice to decide what we want ..

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:21 pm

Bill, you can chalk this up to lawyer types in DC trying to cram gigantic, grandiose but vague omnipork bills down our throat.

Too bad they can't take logical, commonsense and fiscally responsible incremental steps to address the varied problems in the system. But that would be too tedious...too much like that boring problem solving that we in the private sector have to go through.

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:24 pm

lonewolf wrote:Bill, you can chalk this up to lawyer types in DC trying to cram gigantic, grandiose but vague omnipork bills down our throat.

Too bad they can't take logical, commonsense and fiscally responsible incremental steps to address the varied problems in the system. But that would be too tedious...too much like that boring problem solving that we in the private sector have to go through.

This omnipork bill is only 1200 pages long. That is a light read; considering the declaration of independence is only two pages.

CHICKSINGA · Post by **CHICKSINGA** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:34 pm

Sadly the government is in no shape to run anyting - witness Bush's sad dealing with the outrageous gas prices last year and Obama's spending hemorhage.

So why on earth do we think that Government Run Health Care would work on any level? It would be another diluted socialist prgram with even more restrictions.

The answer is TAX CREDITS to employers to pay healthcare for EMPLOYEES - people who WORK for what they get not those looking for one more free handout. AND Tort Reform.

BUT hell no - the government will never agree - Because Tax credits don't feed their coffers and Tort reform would screw all the government employees involved in insurance company investment!!!

I'm going to England and France next week for 12 days - I will ask many questions and observe what a controlled government system is like first hand. I'll let you know what I find out - good or bad...

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:57 pm

CHICKSINGA wrote:Sadly the government is in no shape to run anyting - witness Bush's sad dealing with the outrageous gas prices last year and Obama's spending hemorhage.

So why on earth do we think that Government Run Health Care would work on any level? It would be another diluted socialist prgram with even more restrictions.

The answer is TAX CREDITS to employers to pay healthcare for EMPLOYEES - people who WORK for what they get not those looking for one more free handout. AND Tort Reform.

BUT hell no - the government will never agree - Because Tax credits don't feed their coffers and Tort reform would screw all the government employees involved in insurance company investment!!!

I'm going to England and France next week for 12 days - I will ask many questions and observe what a controlled government system is like first hand. I'll let you know what I find out - good or bad...

I will be eagerly awaiting what you have to report. Have a good trip and gig.

Naga · Post by **Naga** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:56 pm

You know,... The health care system, as it is, is really f'd up. I know a lot of people who have NO way of getting health insurance, because their cost of living is too much for what they can afford, EVEN while working their asses off! What if they get into an accident? What if they get sick with something that deteriorates them? What happens if anything happens, outside of getting a little cut or bruise? Yeah, they're totally screwed. I'm paying $100+ per month for insurance, and it's just barely any kind of insurance. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't drop that, and hold the money, but then the costs of any accident I get into will probably cost 10x whatever I save over the next YEAR!

All that said, I myself am rather wary on what this health care bill is going to do. But there are a lot of lives riding on this that will be DEPENDING on the gov't to not drop the ball. Realizing it may fail, I'd really hate to see what the future of health care in this country will be like. A lot of people have NO options

f.sciarrillo · Post by **f.sciarrillo** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:15 pm

Naga wrote:You know,... The health care system, as it is, is really f'd up. I know a lot of people who have NO way of getting health insurance, because their cost of living is too much for what they can afford, EVEN while working their asses off! What if they get into an accident? What if they get sick with something that deteriorates them? What happens if anything happens, outside of getting a little cut or bruise? Yeah, they're totally screwed. I'm paying $100+ per month for insurance, and it's just barely any kind of insurance. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't drop that, and hold the money, but then the costs of any accident I get into will probably cost 10x whatever I save over the next YEAR!

All that said, I myself am rather wary on what this health care bill is going to do. But there are a lot of lives riding on this that will be DEPENDING on the gov't to not drop the ball. Realizing it may fail, I'd really hate to see what the future of health care in this country will be like. A lot of people have NO options

It does need fixed, but the way that the government wants to do it is not going to work. Regulating it would be a better option. I think focusing more on tort reform would be a better endeavor ... I can pretty much say, though, that who ever votes for it with with single payer in it will not be re-elected in 2010 ..

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:11 pm

My healthcare can beat up your healthcare!

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:13 pm

Hawk wrote:Yeah ! Lets keep 10 million without health care ! I'm afraid of government run anything ! I'm Paranoid ! Let's end medicare ! Let everyone who gets dropped from health care go into bankruptcy, that's the American way ! Yeaaahh ! Let's let the insurance industry decide who gets what ! That's the capitalist way ! Let's not do anything, it's perfect the way it is ! I'm so happy I live in he USA where capitalistic insurance agents decide if I get health care or not ! Medicare and government run health care for veterns suck ! I'd much rather the uninsured go to Emergency and KEEP my premiums high ! My tax money pays for your grandmothers operation and that just wrong in a capitalistic society ! I hate that ! My neighbor is dying from cancer, his insurance company dropped him, YES that's how insurance run health care should work ! He'll owe Hundreds of Thousands, No problem, just raise my premiums to cover that $ the hospital lost ! LIFE IS GOOD, AS LONG AS IT IS THE OTHER GUY WHO IS GETTING SCREWED !

Would you rather have the choice to pay higher premiums or no choice to pay higher taxes?

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:01 pm

RobTheDrummer wrote:
Hawk wrote:Yeah ! Lets keep 10 million without health care ! I'm afraid of government run anything ! I'm Paranoid ! Let's end medicare ! Let everyone who gets dropped from health care go into bankruptcy, that's the American way ! Yeaaahh ! Let's let the insurance industry decide who gets what ! That's the capitalist way ! Let's not do anything, it's perfect the way it is ! I'm so happy I live in he USA where capitalistic insurance agents decide if I get health care or not ! Medicare and government run health care for veterns suck ! I'd much rather the uninsured go to Emergency and KEEP my premiums high ! My tax money pays for your grandmothers operation and that just wrong in a capitalistic society ! I hate that ! My neighbor is dying from cancer, his insurance company dropped him, YES that's how insurance run health care should work ! He'll owe Hundreds of Thousands, No problem, just raise my premiums to cover that $ the hospital lost ! LIFE IS GOOD, AS LONG AS IT IS THE OTHER GUY WHO IS GETTING SCREWED !
Would you rather have the choice to pay higher premiums or no choice to pay higher taxes?

Either one is fine, as long as everyone gets equal coverage.

CHICKSINGA · Post by **CHICKSINGA** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:58 pm

Ok, first I want to apologize for what I'm about to say if it offends people whom I like. But I'm very tired of the constant glossing over of the reality of life and what is happening to this country. Obama is more bold and dead-set on communism than I could have ever predicted. It doesn't take a Rocket Science to see this. It takes a person who is honest with themselves and has their eyes open...

I guess I have a problem with equal. If people want equal, I figure they need to do well in school, study and earn the grades to go to college or a trade school (like I did). Then from there they work hard and earn thier way by augmenting their education, work even harder, have children when they are able to take care of them, have the number of children they are able to take care of, live honestly and within their means and apply themselves daily. OR move to Cuba!! Just ask Diane Watson what a GREAT leader Castro is! (wonder how many Americans swim to Cuba?)

Yes, hard times happen - and honey they have happened to me (my fiance died a month before our wedding, I was beaten by my first husband, I got laid off building while a house, I was fired because a boss didn't like that I told him to get his hand off my fucking knee, etc., etc.)
And NEVER have I had an excuse to not do the things that kept me working hard and doing well. And do I have a problem handing my hard earned tax dollars to a whiney, gimme mine society? Fuckin' Right, I do! I grew up poor as hell, but with a good work ethic and love of God. It wasn't perfect, but I saw my Dad work his balls of til the day he decided it was easier to collect a check from the almighty, solve it all Government. From there he lost his sense of responsibility and drank like a fish - and died a horrible death at 65. So whine away about how hard your life is. I DON"T WANT TO HEAR IT! Get off your ass and EARN it

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:30 pm

CHICKSINGA wrote:Ok, first I want to apologize for what I'm about to say if it offends people whom I like. But I'm very tired of the constant glossing over of the reality of life and what is happening to this country. Obama is more bold and dead-set on communism than I could have ever predicted. It doesn't take a Rocket Science to see this. It takes a person who is honest with themselves and has their eyes open...

I guess I have a problem with equal. If people want equal, I figure they need to do well in school, study and earn the grades to go to college or a trade school (like I did). Then from there they work hard and earn their way by augmenting their education, work even harder, have children when they are able to take care of them, have the number of children they are able to take care of, live honestly and within their means and apply themselves daily. OR move to Cuba!! Just ask Diane Watson what a GREAT leader Castro is! (wonder how many Americans swim to Cuba?)

Yes, hard times happen - and honey they have happened to me (my fiance died a month before our wedding, I was beaten by my first husband, I got laid off building while a house, I was fired because a boss didn't like that I told him to get his hand off my fucking knee, etc., etc.)
And NEVER have I had an excuse to not do the things that kept me working hard and doing well. And do I have a problem handing my hard earned tax dollars to a whiney, gimme mine society? Fuckin' Right, I do! I grew up poor as hell, but with a good work ethic and love of God. It wasn't perfect, but I saw my Dad work his balls of til the day he decided it was easier to collect a check from the almighty, solve it all Government. From there he lost his sense of responsibility and drank like a fish - and died a horrible death at 65. So whine away about how hard your life is. I DON"T WANT TO HEAR IT! Get off your ass and EARN it!

Bless you Chick. But you seem to have the idea that everyone is as healthy, strong, intelligent, tough as you are. Are there slackers, Damn right and they piss me off too. I wish there was a way to weed them out.

Were you without health care during your bad times ? If you had become sick with some disease should your care be limited because you were between jobs and had no insurance ? If you had contracted some perpetual illness, would it be good for the insurance companies to refuse coverage to you ?

There are disabled people out there. Some of whom have been dropped by their insurance company.

I've met MANY people who are so stupid that a job at McDonald's is the highest they will ever achieve. While you may think of a job as a stepping stone, it can be the peak for others. Should we punish them by letting them out of the health system ? Should their access be, go to emergency and clog it up ?

What do you want to do about people who have paid insurance premiums all of their life, get a catastrophic illness, and find out that their insurance won't cover it in full, or perhaps not at all, and they are forced into medical bills bankruptcy.

There are around 40 million people without coverage. Let's say 30 million of them are either slackers or young stupid kids who won't spend the money to buy insurance. I care about as little as 10 people let alone 10 million whop do not have proper coverage. Something needs to be done. The ONLY plans I hear are the Democrats and lonewolf's.

If the system is broke, the system isn't going to fix itself. The insurance companies don't want a fix. The people can't fix it, so it's up to their elected representatives. If the Republicans don't want to fix it, who does that leave ?

Love you Trace, You're a strong willed girl. Some people would have fell flat on their face if they had to live your hard times. I know you're not complaining, just using your self as an example of what you want everyone else to live up to. Some can't.

BTW, you didn't piss me off, I respect what you've done and I understand it's influence on your opinions.

I would like the Federal Government to develop a new agency called "Weed out the Slackers". No Offence to "Slacker Theory".

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:42 pm

Hawk wrote:

Either one is fine, as long as everyone gets equal coverage.

How about equal houses? I have seen some huge mansions around here, and I want the government to provide me an equal house to the richest people in Blair co.

How about equal cars? I see lots of Beemers, Mercedes, Humvees, Lexus and Audis around here. I want govt to provide equal vehicles.

How about equal jobs? There are some really high paying jobs around here. Why won't the govt provide equal jobs for us all?

(maybe that one is a sore subject these days with a new record 9.7% unemployment, so the government might have trouble meeting this equal coverage)

B. Hussein got a free ride to Harvard. How about this government providing equal free college educations? It is the moral thing to do.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:18 am

CHICKSINGA wrote:Ok, first I want to apologize for what I'm about to say if it offends people whom I like. But I'm very tired of the constant glossing over of the reality of life and what is happening to this country. Obama is more bold and dead-set on communism than I could have ever predicted. It doesn't take a Rocket Science to see this. It takes a person who is honest with themselves and has their eyes open...

I guess I have a problem with equal. If people want equal, I figure they need to do well in school, study and earn the grades to go to college or a trade school (like I did). Then from there they work hard and earn thier way by augmenting their education, work even harder, have children when they are able to take care of them, have the number of children they are able to take care of, live honestly and within their means and apply themselves daily. OR move to Cuba!! Just ask Diane Watson what a GREAT leader Castro is! (wonder how many Americans swim to Cuba?)

Yes, hard times happen - and honey they have happened to me (my fiance died a month before our wedding, I was beaten by my first husband, I got laid off building while a house, I was fired because a boss didn't like that I told him to get his hand off my fucking knee, etc., etc.)
And NEVER have I had an excuse to not do the things that kept me working hard and doing well. And do I have a problem handing my hard earned tax dollars to a whiney, gimme mine society? Fuckin' Right, I do! I grew up poor as hell, but with a good work ethic and love of God. It wasn't perfect, but I saw my Dad work his balls of til the day he decided it was easier to collect a check from the almighty, solve it all Government. From there he lost his sense of responsibility and drank like a fish - and died a horrible death at 65. So whine away about how hard your life is. I DON"T WANT TO HEAR IT! Get off your ass and EARN it

That argument may have some validity if America were a meritocracy, but it's the great lie that America is a meritocracy. As I've stated on this board before, I bust my ass week in and week out, working up to three jobs - I probably work more so than a lot of the "if you're not rich, you're a lazy bum" crowd on here - and I'm uninsured. I've never bitched about that and accept that lot until my current trajectory puts me in a middle-class position (God, I hope there's something when I walk across that stage and get hooded), but I'm skeptical of the "if you're not insured, you're a lazy bum" crowd, especially since I've yet to see any hard empirical evidence presented by those people that uninsured people are lazy POS who can't get upward mobility due to their inferiority.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:38 am

bassist_25 wrote:
That argument may have some validity if America were a meritocracy, but it's the great lie that America is a meritocracy.

What exactly is it then? What is your answer to the problem that there will always be some folks with more and some with less?

I did not get my job because I knew someone, or because of who my family was. I do not keep my job for any other reason except that I keep doing what I am expected to do. My merit keeps me working in this job. How do you explain that?

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:56 am

undercoverjoe wrote: My merit keeps me working in this job. How do you explain that?

First, because your position is based on a labor market and supply and demand curve just like any other commodity. You perform a task at a skill level in which there is enough shortage of people with your skills for you to remain in your position. If your industry changed enough (hypothetically speaking) that your position became obselete, you'd be out of a job, despite how well you performed or how high your performance evaluation numbers were. How about this analogy? Who's makes more money, the Jonas Brothers or Al Di Meola? I don't know for sure, but I'd venture the former. Who's arguably more talented? Dig?

Second, because wealth is not built through labor, but through investment of capital - you could bust your ass all of your life and be excellent at what you. However, you would never obtain the same wealth in most positions through wages as you would through investment of capital. (that's really not addressing your question, but is inline with the "America is not a meritocracy" position).

Third, have you ever considered that you may be too good at your job? Ever think that HR may think that someone of your skill level and experience has become too expensive, particulary when factoring in legacy costs? Are you an employee at will or are you protected by an individual contract or collective bargaining agreement? You can be too good at your job. Is that smart HR? I don't know; it depends on a number of factors.

I'm not a Marxist; I'm actually pretty capitalistic to a cetain extent, but I don't bullshit myself into thinking it's a pure meritocracy out there.

Naga · Post by **Naga** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:01 am

Long and short of it,... I'll agree on several cases here

I don't believe that that woman who has 6 kids to 4 different fathers, is on welfare and has never worked a day in her life SHOULD have a grab on this health care system. Welfare provides her and hers. But like Paul stated, majority of Americans CANNOT afford health care right now, and it's not because they aren't working for it... It's that there is a price border issue that's not getting any better

Seeing what I see and knowing what I know, the whole idea of insurance, be it flood, fire, hurricane, car, housing, or health, is just one big fucking joke! We're constantly being charged more and higher prices, just because the insurance companies wanna make a buck off of us. I don't care what it's from. If it's from lawsuits on dr.s, maybe people need to chill out, or maybe dr.s need to really learn their proffession better. A lot of dr.s around here make LETHAL mistakes, and I can go on for days with stories from what I heard and seen

But then really, it's all one big joke. One big thing to laugh at, one big lie. Why do we pay such high premiums? Why is it possible for insurance brokers to get so rich off of us? And do they realize that the less insurance on a public basis there is, the less money they'll get overall? The gov't has no regulation point on these companies. But why should they care when they can AFFORD it! We're all working harder and harder. Instead of giving us cures, the dr.s are giving us pills to numb things, make us relax a little more, and forget that, really, there IS something wrong, and not feeling it WON'T make it go away!

Trace is hitting hard on a point... It's not easy to do things right. In fact, it's getting harder and harder to do what's right, because what's easier is being given to people. And not only that, but it's getting easier and easier than ever before to just be handed things, and harder and harder to do what's right

I work 32hrs a week on avg., which is not a lot regardless. However, I'll make it clear that most of the time, after pushing myself during those 32hrs at work, I'm just dragging around at home. Tegamal/Joe can attest to that. And I'm affording health care (actually just affording it, as opposed to being comfortable). But consider me one of few. And also, I've been thinking, and in all actuality, I consider what money I'm giving to my health care provider a waste of money. As I said before, health care is a total ripoff. I don't think the gov't will deliver on any of it,... But I'm definitely hoping that the gov't is going to do something right in the health care system. I can afford it for now (although, I realize rates will continue to hike). Many of my friends are struggling too much to even afford it as it is. And soon enough, I'll just drop the whole idea, as I really don't see it worth anything right now as it is

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:06 am

Nothing is a pure anything. Maybe one could say in your example that the Jonas Brothers are more talented at getting young girls to buy their cd's than Al is. That talent, if you decide to call it that, makes them very wealthy.

But if we are not meritocracy, what then are we?

I got my job and keep it on my merits. No one stepped in and said give this guy that job. My dad did not leave this job to me when he passed away.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:11 am

Naga wrote:
I don't believe that that woman who has 6 kids to 4 different fathers, is on welfare and has never worked a day in her life SHOULD have a grab on this health care system. Welfare provides her and hers. But like Paul stated, majority of Americans CANNOT afford health care right now, and it's not because they aren't working for it... It's that there is a price border issue that's not getting any better

As always, John, you gave a rational framing of the issue. I don't know if Obama Care is the answer. I haven't researched it enough and I don't feel qualified to give a cogent analysis. However, I do know that the current status quo of health care is a clusterfornication.

I would, however, like to explore how a reformed health system would affect things from an HR perspective. Health care costs are a big reason why companies don't hire new employees, and instead, stack loads of overtime on current employees. It's cheaper to pay the time and a half than pay for health care. You really can't blame management for that strategy. With at least cheaper health care at the same quality level, it would be interesting to see if jobs became more readily available. In the current economy, that would be a Godsend.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:26 am

undercoverjoe wrote:Nothing is a pure anything. Maybe one could say in your example that the Jonas Brothers are more talented at getting young girls to buy their cd's than Al is. That talent, if you decide to call it that, makes them very wealthy.

My point exactly. That "talent" of getting young girls to buy their CDs is marketable, despite how much work they actually put into it. Al labored over becoming a world renowned guitarist, yet that skill just isn't as marketable as being a teen sex symbol. It has more to do with having marketable skills in which there is a shortage than having excellent skills for which there is low demand.

But if we are not meritocracy, what then are we?

A strange mix of plutocracy, socialism, netocracy, oligopoly, and yes, some meritocracy.

I got my job and keep it on my merits. No one stepped in and said give this guy that job. My dad did not leave this job to me when he passed away.

Great to hear nepotism wasn't at work. While I don't doubt that you perform well in your job, I redirect you to my previous argument: You have skills at a specific level which are in demand in a market where there apparently was a shortage when you were hired. Your current performance may keep you in your position, but if those skills were to become obselete, you'd have to reinvent yourself, no matter how much of a kick ass pharmaceutical salesman you were. Unless, of course, your company had strong employee loyalty and retrained or transfered you.

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