Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal

[songsmith]

Mexicans don't necessarily vote Dem. George W. courted Latino's to great success. Many are devout Catholics, and vote conservative, with The Church.
File it under the same neo generalization as "All poor people are on welfare" or "Conservatives are more patriotic than liberals."--->JMS

[Hawk]

And the people who hire them should have to ask for proof of citizenship (no matter what their heritage is). And lock up anyone who hires an illegal.

They already do. It's called an I-9 form, and larger companies often have an HR staff member dedicated soley to the processing of such forms.

And lock up anyone who hires an

So you're saying to impose criminal punishments against what would amount to stautatory infractions, particuarly if the result of hiring an illegal is related to the negligence of the employer rather than a result of the employer's own active agency?

The illegals will disappear in no time.

They haven't since 1986, which was when companies were required to issue I-9 forms to new hires. I know that Rockpage likes simple solutions to complex problems, but that inductive reasoning just isn't going to work here. Furthermore, I-9 forms are meant to determine the legality of someone working in the United States. You are stating that companies should investigate whether employees do or do not hold citizenship. Those are two different things. Should a student studying abroad be denied the opportunity to hold a part-time job because she holds a valid green card rather than being an actual citizen? What about the Brittish company that sends over a manager for a year to help facilitate a smooth organizational change during a merger? Should he go through the naturalization process just to work in America for a year?

I'd even give them each a ticket home and $1,000 bonus to live on when they get home until they get on their feet. That would free up jobs here and force the employers to pay a decent wage. While some costs might go up. the increased tax revenue would allow for a cut in taxes.

How so?

Since home owners don't normally have to hand out a W2, then no, they won't be prosecuted. But if they want, they can still ask for proof of citizenship.

Again, you're misconstruing "being in the country illegally" with "being a citizen."

I'll boil it down for you. Hire any illegal alien - Go directly to jail.

Are illegal aliens "on the books" or "paid under the table" ?

[bassist_25]

I'll boil it down for you. Hire any illegal alien - Go directly to jail.

Are illegal aliens "on the books" or "paid under the table" ?

Not considering the huge due process issue with that plan - So an employer found hiring an illegal alien with forged documents should be held criminally liable? This issue is not simply solved through HR processes.

Here are some resources about I-9:

http://www.kollman-saucier.com/articles/article50.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-9_(form)

http://www.osha.gov/pls/epub/wageindex. ... ndbook.pdf

http://hr.unc.edu/formfinder/forms-empl ... tshell.pdf

The first source addressses the prison aspect.

[Sapo]

And the people who hire them should have to ask for proof of citizenship (no matter what their heritage is). And lock up anyone who hires an illegal.

They already do. It's called an I-9 form, and larger companies often have an HR staff member dedicated soley to the processing of such forms.

And lock up anyone who hires an

So you're saying to impose criminal punishments against what would amount to stautatory infractions, particuarly if the result of hiring an illegal is related to the negligence of the employer rather than a result of the employer's own active agency?

The illegals will disappear in no time.

They haven't since 1986, which was when companies were required to issue I-9 forms to new hires. I know that Rockpage likes simple solutions to complex problems, but that inductive reasoning just isn't going to work here. Furthermore, I-9 forms are meant to determine the legality of someone working in the United States. You are stating that companies should investigate whether employees do or do not hold citizenship. Those are two different things. Should a student studying abroad be denied the opportunity to hold a part-time job because she holds a valid green card rather than being an actual citizen? What about the Brittish company that sends over a manager for a year to help facilitate a smooth organizational change during a merger? Should he go through the naturalization process just to work in America for a year?

I'd even give them each a ticket home and $1,000 bonus to live on when they get home until they get on their feet. That would free up jobs here and force the employers to pay a decent wage. While some costs might go up. the increased tax revenue would allow for a cut in taxes.

How so?

Since home owners don't normally have to hand out a W2, then no, they won't be prosecuted. But if they want, they can still ask for proof of citizenship.

Again, you're misconstruing "being in the country illegally" with "being a citizen."

Many, many, many illegals work under the table and do not fill out I-9's. They work for companies, for example, in construction, who damn sure know they are here illegally and keep them off the books...taking jobs from people here legally AND not paying any taxes. Companies in general don't have the means to verify immigration status and enforcement agencies, in my experience, aren't out there checking I-9's. I mean, they don't even go looking for visa overstays...and they are pretty cut and dried. The whole system is really a joke once you've seen it in action.

You can criminally charge employers now who knowingly hire illegals. You can tag them under a variety of statutes. The penalties can be quite severe. The government can also seize a company or its assets if they are convicted.

Illegals haven't gone away since 86 because there has been no serious employer sanctions or any other type of immigration enforcement. This issue is so political and most politicians are to blame for the situation. They want cheap labor and votes.

Also, you can be here legally as an alien and not be allowed to work. It depends on the type of visa you are here under...and there are a bunch of different types.

[bassist_25]

Many, many, many illegals work under the table and do not fill out I-9's. They work for companies, for example, in construction, who damn sure know they are here illegally and keep them off the books...taking jobs from people here legally AND not paying any taxes. Companies in general don't have the means to verify immigration status and enforcement agencies, in my experience, aren't out there checking I-9's. I mean, they don't even go looking for visa overstays...and they are pretty cut and dried. The whole system is really a joke once you've seen it in action.

You can criminally charge employers now who knowingly hire illegals. You can tag them under a variety of statutes. The penalties can be quite severe. The government can also seize a company or its assets if they are convicted.

Illegals haven't gone away since 86 because there has been no serious employer sanctions or any other type of immigration enforcement. This issue is so political and most politicians are to blame for the situation. They want cheap labor and votes.

Also, you can be here legally as an alien and not be allowed to work. It depends on the type of visa you are here under...and there are a bunch of different types.

I'm not saying that I-9's are the solve-all problem of illegal immigrantion. I'm saying the opposite: They are not the solve-all problem of the issue of illegal immigration. The original argument was that forcing employers to quit hiring illegal aliens would somehow solve all of those woes.

Here's one of the problems with treating HR processes as the primary means of quelling illegal immigration. An employer knowingly hires illegal aliens, doesn't process I-9s, and doesn't pay payroll taxes - Someone reports this employer to the enforcing government agency. They are investigated, found in violation of the Immigration Reform and Control Act, and are given the appropriate consequences. That's all fine and dandy. What about the myriad of other employers who have not been reported?

Here's an anagolous example. Employers are required to pay overtime to hourly employees who have worked over 40 hours in a given week. Otherwise, the employer's in violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). Violating the FLSA results in some hefty fines and is generally an unpleasant experience for the employer. However, Wage and Hour, which is an agency that's already understaffed, doesn't just randomly roll into employers to do audits like it's the health inspector. They're too busy making sure reported companies are FLSA compliant. Can you fathom the staffing and economic resources that would be needed to realistically investigate all employers who could be harboring illegal aliens? If they start hiring to fullfill that duty, let's all get our resumes up on USAJobs.com, because that 10% unemployment number just may go down a few percentage points.

It's easy to say "this ought to be done" or "that ought to be done." It's another thing to actually create a realistic plan to implement it.

[Sapo]

You have to aggressively work employer sanctions cases and seize companies and throw company people in jail. That starts to send a message to larger companies. You detain and set up for deportation (and possibly criminal prosecution) any illegals stopped by state and local police during routine traffic stops (doesn't happen that often now), or anywhere else they turn up. And they turn up a lot. You take interior immigration enforcement away from ICE (former employer) and give it to the Border Patrol (former employer). You increase the staffing of the Patrol to give them the numbers they need for this increased mission.

As far as overtime goes, the agency in the state that handles that stuff is the Bureau of Labor Law Compliance (former employer). If you get screwed on overtime give them a call and they will investigate it.

[JackANSI]

I'm all for 'illegals' working jobs that 'legals' don't want to work... Sometimes things need to get done, and done cheap. If you want a 'legal' to do that crappy job you'd have to jack the pay up quite a bit making whatever the product of that labor more expensive...

Now if they'd just quit pooping on the lettuce, I'd be even happier...

[Naga]

You have to admit, we sorta kicked ourselves in that aspect. People tend to hire Jose cos Jose doesn't mind the hard work and doesn't care if he's paid the same. He's being paid more on this side of the border than he was on that. And when you get 5-10 working Joses in one single household, yeah... Of course Jose's $21.2K (compared to Joe's, remember that Jose is usually paid less) only ends up being like $21K total

If a lot of us don't mind going out and working at the jobs and doing at the same price, we can start to CONSIDER working on getting jobs back

I lived in a community 7 years ago (in fact, just past 7yrs ago at this point!). There were 2 families of "Jose" living on my block. The one bunch was a family of 6 people... 2 women, 2 men, 2 kids. They didn't care about who was what, didn't care about any of us. Totally negligent. The other household was like 3 or 4 men, 2 or 3 women. I don't recall. But the one was a really decent fellow. He told us (my family) about how he was trying to gather some money and send it back to his family south of the border cos they were poor. He was hard-working, well-mannered, and a really decent guy. His family/housemates weren't always so decent, but we'd just talk with him and he'd clear things up. Regardless, both families mostly stuck to themselves. They worked, paid their rent and went about their own business

At the time too, or maybe a little before, there was another family of born and raised Americans... 1 man, 2 women, 2 kids. The women were on welfare. The 2 kids were on SSI (with no real reason to be!). The guy there was working a job, and was also a drug dealer on the side. These people were loud, obnoxious, and difficult in general to deal with. Somehow, they had 2 vehicles... The one woman was driving a mid-sized car, and the man was driving an SUV around, and not a cheap one. They were also on Section 8. With drug money and a job's fare coming in, and with paying so little out comparably, what really could they ask for? Meanwhile, the rest of us just wished they weren't such pains in the rear

Sometimes, it's not about Joe and Jose. We do have a big problem. But then in many other ways, the debt of our country isn't entirely their fault either. Our government hands out WAAAY too many free rides. Some day, those rides are going to drive this country into an early grave. At that point, I can see one British pound being worth about $10 USD. Our government is, therefore, kicking us all down. The immigration issue is just laziness. On top of that, it's only one sector, one piece of the pie, as to what is killing this country

[DogAlpha]

I lived with other cultures in Los Angeles for about a year. I never wondered if some where illegal and never asked. I was just like them, a man trying to make a living, provide for my family and find my place in the world. As far as singling out Jose I am sure I met just as many Asian and aliens from all over the world while living on the west coast.

I see plenty of people on Welfare and SSI who I know personally have the capability to work and are milking our tax dollars.

The way I see it is like this... There are no borders. Humans have been migrating from place to place since we left the caves.

The only reason there are these borders is for the governments of the world to control the people, monies and Mother Earths resources’. The Great Wall of China didn’t keep out the Mongol Hordes and the Berlin wall was traversed by people at the risk of their lives for a better life.

We are all slaves to the Government Machine and the Federal Reserve.

I think Tyler summed it up in the movie Fight Club:

I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

[Banned]

I lived with other cultures in Los Angeles for about a year. I never wondered if some where illegal and never asked. I was just like them, a man trying to make a living, provide for my family and find my place in the world. As far as singling out Jose I am sure I met just as many Asian and aliens from all over the world while living on the west coast.

I see plenty of people on Welfare and SSI who I know personally have the capability to work and are milking our tax dollars.

The way I see it is like this... There are no borders. Humans have been migrating from place to place since we left the caves.

The only reason there are these borders is for the governments of the world to control the people, monies and Mother Earths resources’. The Great Wall of China didn’t keep out the Mongol Hordes and the Berlin wall was traversed by people at the risk of their lives for a better life.

We are all slaves to the Government Machine and the Federal Reserve.

I think Tyler summed it up in the movie Fight Club:

I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

Watch this:

http://freedomain.blogspot.com/2008/11/ ... art-3.html