National Debt Higest Since WW II

[f.sciarrillo]

Perhaps I can put the post-Vietnam history of the debt into a perspective that everyone can understand. In doing so, I am in no way advocating any of the participants in the expansion of the incompetent (except for killing people and blowing things up) and inept federal government.

Lets call a balanced budget a highway speed limit of 65 and each car that goes by is one year of the actual federal government spending. We the people are the traffic cop with a radar gun watching the highway.

Keep in mind that most people drive around 70 in a 65 zone and don't think anything of it--neither do the traffic cops. The first 20 cars are clocked at around 68-70mph and the cops don't bother ticketing them. Then, a few of them come in at 65 and 64 mph. Kind of a surprise to the cop, but no big deal. Then there are several more cars that are clocked at around 70 again and the cop is really getting complacent...

Then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, comes a car going 120 and zooms past the traffic cop. The cop is stunned, but starts his car up and gets ready to chase it down. Before he pulls out, here comes another car going 130. As he commences the chase, a helicopter reports that there are several more cars behind him going at speeds in excess of 120 mph.

So here we are, chasing two cars at 130 with many more behind us, hoping that we can get control of the highway again. We shall see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDcc

[Hawk]

I do know that a lot of the jobs he got are not private sector jobs. He didn't create teaching jobs, he saved a couple.

I'd say he saved more than a couple of jobs. Try some research.

Like GM and Chrysler and every company that supplies for them or sells for them. Or would you prefer that those jobs go to increased sales of foreign cars ?

You are so damn stupid I love picking on you as I see you as the typical uninformed Foxamaniac that you are.

And what about the people who have a job who are NOT in the private sector. Would you rather they lose their jobs, collect unemployment and stop paying taxes ? Oh yeah, I forgot, you can't think things through for yourself.

Tell me once and for all. How can he create jobs out of thin air?

[f.sciarrillo]

I do know that a lot of the jobs he got are not private sector jobs. He didn't create teaching jobs, he saved a couple.

I'd say he saved more than a couple of jobs. Try some research.

Like GM and Chrysler and every company that supplies for them or sells for them. Or would you prefer that those jobs go to increased sales of foreign cars ?

You are so damn stupid I love picking on you as I see you as the typical uninformed Foxamaniac that you are.

And what about the people who have a job who are NOT in the private sector. Would you rather they lose their jobs, collect unemployment and stop paying taxes ? Oh yeah, I forgot, you can't think things through for yourself.

Tell me once and for all. How can he create jobs out of thin air?

I am only stupid because I don't listen to your Liberal loving bs. You think what you want, I will think what I want. We both think we are right. Only I don't do the character assassination when another person doesn't agree with me - Liberals will always be liberals. You better hurry up, Racheal Maddow is on. I wonder what Dem she is interviewing tonight?

Also, the only jobs he saved in the Auto Industry were Unions jobs. All the people who gave him money, while kicking the rest to the curb. You liberals need to wake up and smell something other than the shit obama is spreading. Then you must like it ..

I'm not saying he can create jobs out of thin air. He is the one who said he can with that Porkulous bill he passed. So why don't you ask him. I am sure you have him on speed dial.

[Banned]

Tell me once and for all. How can he create jobs out of thin air?

Get government taxes and regulations under control (mostly eliminated) and then businesses will grow and prosper.

[hicksjd9]

Hawk and Frank,

You are wrong about the teacher thing. Obama has neither created nor saved any teaching jobs. I am a teacher and the federal government allocates all its money with strings attached. Federal money goes into what they call Title I Jobs. This money is not allowed to be used on regular ed teaching jobs (i.e. classroom teachers). Title I is based on economic conditions. The federal government has not changed its conditions for title I and that means that schools are not getting any extra money than what they have any other year to keep teaching staff on. As a matter of fact, our schools did get stimulus money, but that stimulus money was to be used on technology and teaching resources. Our district used it to outfit almost all of our classrooms with Smartboards and larger reading libraries. Not one job was created or retained with this Federal money.

The money we do get comes from the state. That's why school districts in PA cringe when they hear state lawmakers mention ALL of the federal money that districts get as a reason to cut funding to schools. Schools can use state funds to pay all teachers, but federal money can only go to title folks (a very small minority of teachers in the districts.)

[Hawk]

Frank, Have you noticed that I talk in "specifics" and you still talk in "generalizations". That's because you don't know facts and can't separate reality from Fox / Limbaugh.

FOX - O - MANIAC = a fear of seeing bioth sides.

[f.sciarrillo]

Frank, Have you noticed that I talk in "specifics" and you still talk in "generalizations". That's because you don't know facts and can't separate reality from Fox / Limbaugh.

FOX - O - MANIAC = a fear of seeing bioth sides.

Your only facts are facts you get from Olbermann and the rest of MSNBC. Nothing you say, and nothing you believe, is based on reality. You are as lost as the rest of the left-wing socialist nutcases

[f.sciarrillo]

Hawk and Frank,

You are wrong about the teacher thing. Obama has neither created nor saved any teaching jobs. I am a teacher and the federal government allocates all its money with strings attached. Federal money goes into what they call Title I Jobs. This money is not allowed to be used on regular ed teaching jobs (i.e. classroom teachers). Title I is based on economic conditions. The federal government has not changed its conditions for title I and that means that schools are not getting any extra money than what they have any other year to keep teaching staff on. As a matter of fact, our schools did get stimulus money, but that stimulus money was to be used on technology and teaching resources. Our district used it to outfit almost all of our classrooms with Smartboards and larger reading libraries. Not one job was created or retained with this Federal money.

The money we do get comes from the state. That's why school districts in PA cringe when they hear state lawmakers mention ALL of the federal money that districts get as a reason to cut funding to schools. Schools can use state funds to pay all teachers, but federal money can only go to title folks (a very small minority of teachers in the districts.)

Thank You for clearing this up. I saw that he did save some jobs but not all of them. It looks like none of them were in this area ...

[Hawk]

Frank, Have you noticed that I talk in "specifics" and you still talk in "generalizations". That's because you don't know facts and can't separate reality from Fox / Limbaugh.

FOX - O - MANIAC = a fear of seeing bioth sides.

Your only facts are facts you get from Olbermann and the rest of MSNBC. Nothing you say, and nothing you believe, is based on reality. You are as lost as the rest of the left-wing socialist nutcases

Can you dispute my facts ? Can you prove me wrong ?

[lonewolf]

Can you dispute my facts ? Can you prove me wrong ?

Your facts are irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is that the federal government is presently completely out of control and must be stopped before it bankrupts us all and leaves us with a political ruling class and we, the proletariat.

What you don't seem to understand is that if this continues, the government won't have any money left to spend on anything. All those programs that you champion will also cease to exist.

Of course, to me, that is the only silver lining in this dark cloud. Forced austerity.

EDIT:

Ya wanna fix this mess? The first thing I would do is eliminate the #1 & #2 causes for the present economic condition: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Force them into liquidation and sell their assets to private banks at market prices. Since the government is the senior debt holder, that would generate between 1 and 2 trillion dollars for the U.S. Treasury and we, the bagholders. This would also eliminate the artificial subsidy to the mortgage market that caused this boom and bust bubble in the first place.

[f.sciarrillo]

Frank, Have you noticed that I talk in "specifics" and you still talk in "generalizations". That's because you don't know facts and can't separate reality from Fox / Limbaugh.

FOX - O - MANIAC = a fear of seeing bioth sides.

Your only facts are facts you get from Olbermann and the rest of MSNBC. Nothing you say, and nothing you believe, is based on reality. You are as lost as the rest of the left-wing socialist nutcases

Can you dispute my facts ? Can you prove me wrong ?

I have already tried that and you did not see through the ass shine of Obama. You see nothing but what you want to see. You are blind with man love for Obama. You are lost. There is no hope for you now. The only thing left for you to do is check yourself into The Meadows before you hurt yourself, or someone else. I feel bad for you when Obama doesn't get re-elected. They will probably have to put you on suicide watch ....

[f.sciarrillo]

Can you dispute my facts ? Can you prove me wrong ?

Your facts are irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is that the federal government is presently completely out of control and must be stopped before it bankrupts us all and leaves us with a political ruling class and we, the proletariat.

What you don't seem to understand is that if this continues, the government won't have any money left to spend on anything. All those programs that you champion will also cease to exist.

Of course, to me, that is the only silver lining in this dark cloud. Forced austerity.

I agree. This admin has ruined it for my grand kids. People like Bill want the government to be a socialist society and control everything.

[onegunguitar]

"I have already tried that and you did not see through the ass shine of Obama. You see nothing but what you want to see. You are blind with man love for Obama."
Hahahahahaha

[lonewolf]

I will never forgive Bush & the republicans for their spending spree during the 00's, but you cannot blame Bush for the real estate bubble...his administration was warning us about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as far back as 2003, but it fell on deaf ears in an entrenched, (and on this issue, bipartisan) Congress. Look to names like Oxley, Frank, Dodd and Schumer for our present economic condition.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bush-a ... -mac-risks

Here is a nice collection of WSJ articles (these are NOT freerepublic articles):

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2046287/posts

[Banned]

What some of our allies are writing about the terrible economic conditions in the US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... -1932.html

[Hawk]

FRANK, Either agree with me or prove my facts wrong relative to Bush destroying the economy by increased deficits, tax cuts and spending.
Try it Frank, without your usual "ignore the facts" and "Parroting right wing propaganda " ?

Try answering my quwstions below without some dumb excuse, if that's possible.

Tell me Frank, Did Bush leave the USA deficit at record highs and tell me why YOU Frank, who knows politics, tell me why you NEVER complained ?

Obama, right or wrong , decided to spend money on stimulus so our unemployment isn't higher, which it would be if he hadn't allowed so many people to keep their jobs. I*n other words, he has a reason for his deficit spending.

What was Bush's reason for his increasing the deficit ?



lonewolf, my points are very relevant to this thread. Because I am pointing out that Obama was handed a mess that can't be fixed in a couple of years.

One decent thing Bush did was actually try to regulate Fanny and Freddy. The bill passed the house, Republican senators stopped it dead in it's tracks in the senate.

Your only facts are facts you get from Olbermann and the rest of MSNBC. Nothing you say, and nothing you believe, is based on reality. You are as lost as the rest of the left-wing socialist nutcases

Can you dispute my facts ? Can you prove me wrong ?

I have already tried that and you did not see through the ass shine of Obama. You see nothing but what you want to see. You are blind with man love for Obama. You are lost. There is no hope for you now. The only thing left for you to do is check yourself into The Meadows before you hurt yourself, or someone else. I feel bad for you when Obama doesn't get re-elected. They will probably have to put you on suicide watch ....

***********************************************************
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How in hell can Obama fix a destroyed economy in a couple of years ?


Now I know you right wingers complain about Obama blaming Bush, but the fact is, Bush handed this mess for Obama to clean up. Nearly in a depression when Obama took office. Bush had eight years, 6 with a Republican congress. But he didn't care about the National Debt And either YOU didn't know about it (Fox didn't tell you, neither did Limbaugh ) or you didn't care Which is it

Industries left one after another for foreign countries and their cheap labor, yet still got big tax breaks from Bush.

These companies are not coming back Do you expect Obama to create industry out of thin air Do you buy American made products



Facing opposition in Congress, Bush held town hall-style public meetings across the U.S. in 2001 to increase public support for his plan for a $1.35 trillion tax cut program—one of the largest tax cuts in U.S. history.Bush argued that unspent government funds should be returned to taxpayers, saying "the surplus is not the government’s money. The surplus is the people’s money."

Surplus Yes, Clinton left GW a surplus Clinton's idea was to pay down the national debt

Why weren't ANY of you complaining about this, with most of the tax cuts going to the rich
Answer: You were uninformed because Fox is one sided.

With reports of the threat of recession from Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, Bush argued that such a tax cut would stimulate the economy and create jobs. Others, including the Treasury Secretary at the time Paul O'Neill, were opposed to some of the tax cuts on the basis that they would contribute to budget deficits and undermine Social Security.

None of you ever complained about these deficits
Didn't know
And of course Bush WANTED to undermine Social Security.

In February, 63,000 jobs were lost, a five-year record. To aid with the situation, Bush signed a $170 billion economic stimulus package which was intended to improve the economic situation by sending tax rebate checks to many Americans and providing tax breaks for struggling businesses.

No one complained about Bush's stimulus

n November 2008, over 500,000 jobs were lost, which marked the largest loss of jobs in the United States in 34 years.The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that in the last four months of 2008, 1.9 million jobs were lost. By the end of 2008, the U.S. had lost a total of 2.6 million jobs.

None of you posted about this Because you didn't know it ! Damn Fox and Limbaugh

Tell me Joe, being that this shit was handed to Obama, why do you seem so happy about your opening in this thread

Frank, I'm sorry I couldn't do this post with only two words, like Fox, so that you could understand it. Hope you're not by it.

And the two wars that were handed to Obama, they help increase the national debt. Contrary to Richard Steel's vision of history, Obama did not start these wars
_________________
***********************************************************
*************************************************************
***********************************************************
So Frank, are you saying no industries left for foreign lands during Bush ?

Do you think these industries want to come back to the USA as long as they get $4.00 a day labor and can sell their products to the USA at huge profits ? Go ahead, tell me how Obama should fix that ?

Do you deny Bush created a huge deficit by tax cuts (which resulted in contributing over a trillion dollars to the debt just by itselfd) to the wealthy and creating a war and lots of uncontrolled spending whiched added trillions more to it?

Do you deny that Clinton left GW with a surplus with plans to pay down the national debt ?

Do you deny that GW gave out that same money in the form of a stimulus ?

Do you deny the loss of jobs under Bush ?

Do you deny that Bush handed Obama an expensive war ?

[metal_junky]

I dont usually post to political threads and I am not even gonna waste time reading all the posts in this thread.. its this simple. If you want jobs back in the U.S.A. then you need to build AMERICAN products and to buy ONLY AMERICAN products no matter what is costs. Take the extra minute or 2 to find out where something was made. And untill the American people can do these 2 things our country will continue to FAIL.

A good example would be the "Poof-Slinky" Company in Holidaysburg. They make their toy parts and then send them over sea's to be assembled instead of hiring locals who are in need of jobs. And after the toys are assembled they are sent back to "Poof-Slinky". And this is what a large percentage of the American companys are doing. So instead of blaming our President and Government, maybe we should be looking in the mirror and blaming the right people.

[Hawk]

What some of our allies are writing about the terrible economic conditions in the US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... -1932.html

Joe, nearly everything in that article is relative to what Bush left for Obama to clean up. It can't be fixed in a couple of years.

Joe, when the USA looses millions of jobs to China (that ARE NOT coming back) and the USA keeps buying "made in Chins", I would say the consumer might be playing a part in this mess.

Where are all of those American Flag wavers ? They're at Walmart supporting China.

[Hawk]

I dont usually post to political threads and I am not even gonna waste time reading all the posts in this thread.. its this simple. If you want jobs back in the U.S.A. then you need to build AMERICAN products and to buy ONLY AMERICAN products no matter what is costs. Take the extra minute or 2 to find out where something was made. And untill the American people can do these 2 things our country will continue to FAIL.

A good example would be the "Poof-Slinky" Company in Holidaysburg. They make their toy parts and then send them over sea's to be assembled instead of hiring locals who are in need of jobs. And after the toys are assembled they are sent back to "Poof-Slinky". And this is what a large percentage of the American companys are doing. So instead of blaming our President and Government, maybe we should be looking in the mirror and blaming the right people.

You don't have to read every thread. Your point is "to the point".

I know of one company that builds it's entire product in Japan but they don't actually put it together, then ships it to the US in parts where it is "built", so they can say it is built in the USA.

[tonefight]

I dont usually post to political threads and I am not even gonna waste time reading all the posts in this thread.. its this simple. If you want jobs back in the U.S.A. then you need to build AMERICAN products and to buy ONLY AMERICAN products no matter what is costs. Take the extra minute or 2 to find out where something was made. And untill the American people can do these 2 things our country will continue to FAIL.

Glad to see I'm not alone.

[Banned]

FRANK, Either agree with me or prove my facts wrong relative to Bush destroying the economy by increased deficits, tax cuts and spending.
Try it Frank, without your usual "ignore the facts" and "Parroting right wing propaganda " ?

Try answering my quwstions below without some dumb excuse, if that's possible.

Tell me Frank, Did Bush leave the USA deficit at record highs and tell me why YOU Frank, who knows politics, tell me why you NEVER complained ?

Obama, right or wrong , decided to spend money on stimulus so our unemployment isn't higher, which it would be if he hadn't allowed so many people to keep their jobs. I*n other words, he has a reason for his deficit spending.

What was Bush's reason for his increasing the deficit ?



lonewolf, my points are very relevant to this thread. Because I am pointing out that Obama was handed a mess that can't be fixed in a couple of years.

One decent thing Bush did was actually try to regulate Fanny and Freddy. The bill passed the house, Republican senators stopped it dead in it's tracks in the senate.












Now I know you right wingers complain about Obama blaming Bush, but the fact is, Bush handed this mess for Obama to clean up. Nearly in a depression when Obama took office. Bush had eight years, 6 with a Republican congress. But he didn't care about the National Debt And either YOU didn't know about it (Fox didn't tell you, neither did Limbaugh ) or you didn't care Which is it

Industries left one after another for foreign countries and their cheap labor, yet still got big tax breaks from Bush.

These companies are not coming back Do you expect Obama to create industry out of thin air Do you buy American made products



Facing opposition in Congress, Bush held town hall-style public meetings across the U.S. in 2001 to increase public support for his plan for a $1.35 trillion tax cut program—one of the largest tax cuts in U.S. history.Bush argued that unspent government funds should be returned to taxpayers, saying "the surplus is not the government’s money. The surplus is the people’s money."

Surplus Yes, Clinton left GW a surplus Clinton's idea was to pay down the national debt

Why weren't ANY of you complaining about this, with most of the tax cuts going to the rich
Answer: You were uninformed because Fox is one sided.

With reports of the threat of recession from Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, Bush argued that such a tax cut would stimulate the economy and create jobs. Others, including the Treasury Secretary at the time Paul O'Neill, were opposed to some of the tax cuts on the basis that they would contribute to budget deficits and undermine Social Security.

None of you ever complained about these deficits
Didn't know
And of course Bush WANTED to undermine Social Security.

In February, 63,000 jobs were lost, a five-year record. To aid with the situation, Bush signed a $170 billion economic stimulus package which was intended to improve the economic situation by sending tax rebate checks to many Americans and providing tax breaks for struggling businesses.

No one complained about Bush's stimulus

n November 2008, over 500,000 jobs were lost, which marked the largest loss of jobs in the United States in 34 years.The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that in the last four months of 2008, 1.9 million jobs were lost. By the end of 2008, the U.S. had lost a total of 2.6 million jobs.

None of you posted about this Because you didn't know it ! Damn Fox and Limbaugh

Tell me Joe, being that this shit was handed to Obama, why do you seem so happy about your opening in this thread

Frank, I'm sorry I couldn't do this post with only two words, like Fox, so that you could understand it. Hope you're not by it.

And the two wars that were handed to Obama, they help increase the national debt. Contrary to Richard Steel's vision of history, Obama did not start these wars

Do you think these industries want to come back to the USA as long as they get $4.00 a day labor and can sell their products to the USA at huge profits ? Go ahead, tell me how Obama should fix that ?

Do you deny Bush created a huge deficit by tax cuts (which resulted in contributing over a trillion dollars to the debt just by itselfd) to the wealthy and creating a war and lots of uncontrolled spending whiched added trillions more to it?

Do you deny that Clinton left GW with a surplus with plans to pay down the national debt ?

Do you deny that GW gave out that same money in the form of a stimulus ?

Do you deny the loss of jobs under Bush ?

Do you deny that Bush handed Obama an expensive war ?

Bill, you are better than this. You are really sounding like an Obama apologize and Bush blamer. Quit being such a democrat.

They both suck. You seem to forget that Obama was a senator and voted for all those spending bills.

Neither party really wants to control spending and both ignore the Constitution all the time. If you get caught up in the blame game like Fox vs. MSNBC, you are being distracted from the fact that this bloated government has ruined our children's and grandchildren's future.

[KeithReynolds]

I like bread....especially garlic bread.

[Hawk]

I like bread....especially garlic bread.

I like David Gates when He palyed with Bread ! I actually got to meet him. Very cool guy !

[songsmith]

Being a community organizer (rabble rowser to some) does not prepare you to make decisions concerning the economy of the country of even world.

I love that whole demonization-attempt the rightwing media's feeding you guys. The guy edited the Harvard Law Review and taught Constitutional Law at U of Chicago (not exactly a community college)... and he's a "community organizer."
It could be worse. He could have been a "Hollywood B-movie Actor." --->JMS

[Naga]

Ok. You guys make my head hurt with all the detailed specifics, and then the knocks you throw at everyone else's specifics. That being said, lemme throw a few of the detailed specifics I know into this mess...

First and foremost, we, as a country, run on greed. Of course for most of us hard-working tax payers, it's not greed, but necessity. That is, we have bills that we HAVE to pay, and we can't rely on the money to just come our way when we need it unless we go get it. We don't have someone footing our bills and then throwing more money our way. At least I don't, anyway... If anyone knows where I can sign up, just tell me. I'll read the fine print first though

Anyway... One of the many facts I recently discussed with a friend goes along the ideas of minimum wage increases. I know that our government recently told us that $5.15 isn't good enough, so they jumped us to $7.15. That's a great idea. Those of us who need more money and aren't earning enough will get more money! Just a few little problems with that...

1) All wages aren't substantially increased... Just the ones under that $7.15 mark. Therefore, the man who's earning $7.40 before this minimum wage increase will probably still be earning $7.40 afterwards, unless his company has a good means and finances to boost his income as well as that $5.15 clerk's

2) Because of this, Tom recently decided his $2.70 pack of steaks is worth a little more. Hey, people are earning more money, right? Alright, I can get $3 even off people. Dick, realizing he has to pay more for steaks, figures he can make the extra money up by charging $12 instead of just $10 for his boxes of tableware. Harry is starting to lose money too. Now he's selling his tables at $50 instead of $45. Everybody wants that extra buck, but now the only person who's lost out is anyone who's starting wage was over minimum wage. Pretty much anyone who earned more than $7.14 is now paying more and earning (except in rare cases) just the same as they used to. How can one keep surviving when everything just went up, save for the paycheck?

3) However, we missed Kai down the road in China. He was earning $4/hr (actually, it's more like $1-$2, really, but let's not pick). He's still earning $4. The cheap tables he's selling are still $30, and tableware he's selling are still $8 per box. So, when Harry's worker Jason goes to the store, he looks in his pockets after his bills are all paid and realizes he needs tableware. Well,... Knowing he needs every penny he earns, do you think he'd buy the $8 box, or the $12 box?

Just think about that. I know that in most cases, I'll try to buy for quality over saving a few $$$. But really, when I look at my wallet at the end of the month, seeing more than an extra $20 in there is kinda rare. It grows more rare each time I look in there. So, of course I buy American when I can. But sometimes, it comes down to having to borrow money and pay it back whenever I get it, or just buying it at a price I can afford

As for Obama... I wouldn't say he's the worst president ever. I'd say he's on the level to screw up. Afterall... It's kinda hard to turn a crashing plane around by throwing rocks at it