Mixing opinions--I need your suggestions

[hicksjd9]

Hello everybody,

I've been spending my days woodshedding on mixing and mastering music. I've recorded in other local studios a few times and I feel like we got good, clean results, but the different members of the bands I was in always seemed to disagree about mix levels between instruments. I'm curious to get opinions from fellow musicians.

A friend of mine came over and we mixed and recorded a cheesy little song, which has been my little guinea pig lately among several others. Because it's so short, it's perfect for playing with the mix and getting immediate results. I have a certain way of mixing songs, but I'm trying some new things with this song. I'm looking gain experience in a lot of different mixing styles.

I guess what I am looking for is your opinions on instrument levels in the mix. What would you change about it? What would you bring up or down? This isn't about the song itself or musicianship, so if you want to tell me how bad I suck, please do it via PM . (I played guitar, bass, and sang. I did not play drums.) If you reply, please say what instrument you play in the post so that I, and others who might be interested, can see where you are coming from.

Here is the song. Your advice and opinions are appreciated!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8827405/Piano%2 ... 0724pm.wav

[MeYatch]

sounds fine for certain styles of music, and would probably be a perfectly fine mix for many bands.

The bass is almost inaudible for most of the song, except for the one part in the middle. Assuming you aren't actually changing the volume of it, I would say you have some MAJOR frequency masking going on between the guitar and the bass.

I read an interesting article about mixing one time that suggested creating "notches" in the EQs of the individual tracks, so that there is always an EQ range in the whole mix that is almost entirely dedicated to a certain instrument.

The guitar might be a hair too loud, might not be, but it is definitely taking up a ton of EQ space.

-bass player

[MeYatch]

I just noticed somehow my sub woofer was turned off.

I think everything I said still applies, but its not as bad as I thought originally.

I think a lot of people would be happy with this mix.

I would cut a little of the low end from the bass, raise the overall volume of it a little to compensate, and experiment with cutting frequencies from the guitar. That's just me though.

[Killjingle]

I would be curious to hear the unmastered version of this song. Its hard to determine if it was "right" before the levels were jacked. Thats what I always thought was the hardest part of "mastering." Once u push certain eq's in the mixdown u almost need to pull them down during the "normalizing" "compression" "limiting" "mastering" phase. I learned that the hard way and am by no stretch of the imagination a professional.

IE: When I was mixing down the raw takes for WWJD there has some extreme eq curves on the kick and bass; 50 and 65hz. If I had not compensated for that and eq'd out some other frequencies I would have not been happy at all with the end product. I notched 50hz +6db on the kick for mixdown but notched the overall mix -3db or so on the "mastering end"; so that it fit back in the mix. If I had just normalized the other frequencies would have just blared in the mix trying to keep up with it. I think a lot of dudes make that mistake; myself included.

For my personal taste or for the way I mix I guess u could say...

the drums sound a little flat; eqing them would bring out some more "character"... but I am really fond of a big drum sound...

the bass is a little "round" and the guitar is "loud". I think that I have finally gotten over my struggle with loud guitar. When u are "mastering" a guitars level naturally comes up. An guitar with a high pass filter set at 100hz locked in with a great sounding bass sounds bigger than an un-eq'd guitar with a round bass. I had to train my ears ears to accept this logic. First 100 times I hated it...

the vocals sound nice and could just use a little compression, a little delay

on the other hand if the client is happy you have already won the approval that u ultimately need


- I play guitar, bass, some keyboard, scream not sing, record music and have ran live sound in the past.

[hicksjd9]

Thanks Mitch and Chad. I think you guys have given great suggestions. Can you go into more detail about what you mean by "round" on the bass. I'm interested. I don't think I have any major eq on the drums other than a notch for the bass. I'm asking myself WWCD (what would Chad do?:D) for eq on the drums. I'll have to check. Awesome suggestions so far. Looking forward to more .

[RamRod 1]

I thought the mix was great and it sounded great too.


You said:

but the different members of the bands I was in always seemed to disagree about mix levels between instruments.

Here's something I read in the recording handbook one time. Once a producer was mixing a song while the band was in the with him and then the bass player came up and whispered something in his ear so then the producer turned the bass up. Next, the guitar player did the same thing. Then so did the drummer, singer and keyboard player and then the mix was back where it started from only louder.

It's just human nature that the person playing an insturment usually percieves that their insturment should be louder.

[Mysterytrain]

When I would record in my home studio (with good monitors) I would turn the volume super-low. If I couldn't hear a particular instrument then I would adjust it. It usually worked for me.

[Killjingle]

I like running a highpass on toms anywhere from 80 and under depending on the sound of the recorded drum. If its real I like to notch frequency characteristics of the tom in, if its a sample I kinda like to see what needs to be in and what doesnt.

I like running a high pass on snare at 100-115 and then running notching 200, 500. Sometimes I reach for 4 k but not often. I almost always run 500 twice as loud as 200 but not super agressive in the notches. Doesnt matter if its real or sample, I like that sound. Real needs to be gated and compressed to get that big time producer sound. You cant get it without doing that.

If the kick is sampled its tough to say; some sampled kicks are really good sounding. I still like to notch 50 for power. If u do real it depends on the mic. I have an audix mic/ compressor combo that almost sounds as good as a sample; if placed right and the drum is in tune. I like either 4 or 8 k for that clicky pantera sound... the kick eq is always different with all the diff mics that are offered.

[Killjingle]

Here's something I read in the recording handbook one time. Once a producer was mixing a song while the band was in the with him and then the bass player came up and whispered something in his ear so then the producer turned the bass up. Next, the guitar player did the same thing. Then so did the drummer, singer and keyboard player and then the mix was back where it started from only louder.

BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

[Killjingle]

I agree with Ramrod by the way, I think its a good mix.

[hicksjd9]

Thank you for the great advice ramrod and mysterytrain! Your suggestion is great mysterytrain. I also mix at quiet levels. Helps to remove ear strain and the "character" of the music seems to change as the music gets louder.

For leveling track volume, I've been busing all of my main parts--vocals, guitar, bass, and drums to one track each and then soloing two at a time (for instance, drums and bass, then bass and guitar, guitar and drums, etc.) to get the levels even. The guitar is definitely the TOUGHEST thing to get to play nice. It wants to crowd everything else out in the mix. I've been notching, but still, it's tough!


Chad,
PM Sent. Thank you!

[KeithReynolds]

Awesome thread!!!

Everyone really said good stuff I think. Chad is certainly right about highpassing low frequencies out of things to make room for kick drum and bass. Mostly, thats a metal/rock production technique. Sometimes when you have productions with less going on and less instruments, you dont need to cut those frequencies. While mixing, I always find myself trying different things. Seeing how trying something else sounds on a track. I guess theres no REAL CORRECT way to do anything. I mean, theres certain good starting points. What works for one style of music wont work at all in another. We just gotta use our ears and obviously the suggestions from the band.
Most of the tracks in a typical session of mine all have EQ & Compression. Mostly cuts for EQ.

I like the mix Josh. Id bring the snare up a little more. Allthough, im listening just on old computer speakers, and not the studio monitors.
Its certainly a catchy song man. I like what youve done with it.
Did you record each part of the harmony or is that a plugin? Either way, it sounds really good!

Chad- You should sample that kick drum and hook your friend Keith up with a new sample to play with!

Also, us recording guys should get together one night at a place and just hang out and talk gear and techniques. I know Id love to learn something new!

[lynch1]

?????? Have no idea what most of you are talking about, but listening to it, it sounded good. guitars could have been brought up just a smidge, but I am a guitar player sooooooo.

[hicksjd9]

Keith,

I sang both parts. I agree with the snare thing. The snare is causing me problems and I can't get a sound from it that I really like. I have a bunch of modern rock tunes that I need to record (vs. this poppy stuff) so as I start working on them I'm really going to need a strong snare sound. I was talking to Chad about the snare sound on "something in your mouth" by Nickelback. I'm not a fan of the band (and neither is Chad), but we both agreed that their drum sounds are huge. The snare on that song sounds like a basketball being slammed against the floor of an empty gymnasium. HUGE. I want to know how to get THAT sound! I think it must be some voodoo magic (or maybe they DID sample a basketball hitting the ground of a gym floor!)

[todd17063]

just my opinion and really it don't count.. however the guitar sound is too over driven. i think a slightly over driven guitar with the mids pushed would have made a huge change, also would have given the guitar the ability to cut through the mix at a lower volume.. like i said just my opinion.. Besides that, i like the clarity of the whole mix.

[hicksjd9]

Todd,

I totally agree with what you are saying. Believe it or not, I had the prosonic's gain on two, but the amp was cranked to 5 (which is LOUD). I think I might go back and rerecord the guitar with the clean channel breakup at high volume. I think the gain has a way of just adding noise. I'm going to try to compress the heck out of the guitar before I rerecord and see if it can be tamed a bit.

[MeYatch]

I was just thinking, in regards to my earlier comments. There's nothing really wrong with the bass sound, its not one I really care for, but its fine, except that it sounds like a totally different instrument when the guitar cuts out.

If you are happy with the way the guitar sounds, you could just cut some more mids and high's from the bass to try to get a more consistent sound.

[hicksjd9]

Believe it or not, Mitch, the only difference in that section where everything else but the bass drops out is volume. No eq or anything. It's funny how the human ear perceives louder volume as better. Mine does, too, and it's really tough sometimes to figure out whether something is actually better in the mix or just plain louder.

There really is an art to this. It's very difficult!

[MeYatch]

Believe it or not, Mitch, the only difference in that section where everything else but the bass drops out is volume. No eq or anything.

I can definitely believe that. I think the bass seems to jump out at you in that part because the guitar is covering up a lot of those frequencies in the other parts.

[KeithReynolds]

Eq, Compression & Reverb will help get your snare sound to where you want it.
I havent heard the nickelback song you mentioned, but im sure the snare sounds good. Chances are, its a sample though. Randy Staub mixed the bulk of the record. He's badass.

[DirtySanchez]

Chocolate and Peanut butter > Any other mix out there.

[f.sciarrillo]

Chocolate and Peanut butter > Any other mix out there.

Captain Morgan and coke ..

[hicksjd9]

[hicksjd9]

Sitting here eating a PB&J and washin it down with captain and coke, I uploaded a new mix.

Changes:

More bass
Replaced snare with superior drummer (black beauty)
Dipped guitars in all the right places (tried at least)
Made a little edit to the intro
Eq'd drums some more

Maybe it made a difference??? Don't know. What do you think?



http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8827405/New%20M ... 0353pm.wav

[KeithReynolds]

I still like to notch 50 for power.

Dont you mean Boost?? Or do you actually CUT @ 50 Hz on the kick??

Boosting a bit @ 50 Hz with a Q (bandwidth) of no more than 1 (certainly sometimes less) seems to work pretty good for metal kicks. I dont find myself doing that for other styles of music. Then again, it all depends on the kick sound to begin with I guess.
Youre certainly right though Chad, it does give it power.