National Day of Prayer Deemed Unconstitutional.

[f.sciarrillo]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

Next they are going to say that Easter and Christmas are Unconstitutional. If that is the case, then they should make every holiday, whether it be secular; christian or Islamic Unconstitutional. This is just another way for the government to try and get what this country was made from out of the books.

Let me add that I do appreciate Obama standing up for the day and being a defender of it.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/prayerday.asp

[Flaw]

christmas and easter both have two separate meanings, one religion, one commercial. A day of prayer would strictly be religion and that is supposed to be separate from the government. this is up there with prayer in school. i think if religion strictly wants a holiday, then they should pay taxes.

[songsmith]

"Perhaps anticipating the anger that her ruling would create, she also noted there was no law preventing Americans from praying or organizing non-governmental days of prayer, and wrote this: "I understand that many may disagree with that conclusion and some may even view it as a criticism of prayer or those who pray. That is unfortunate. A determination that the government may not endorse a religious message is not a determination that the message itself is harmful, unimportant or undeserving of dissemination."

I underlined that because it would be deleted by the fringers.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That's straight from the Constitution, and we all know that the Tea Party-types are all about the Constitution right now. Basically, sometimes the Constitution does not favor what the Tea Party or other special-interest groups call their "core values." Sure, the Moral Majority would love a government-sanctioned day to legitimize their religion, but would they support a day of bowing toward Mecca, or lighting some Nag Champa for the Buddha? I bet not.
I also agree that if religions want government influence, they should be taxed the same as everyone else.--->JMS

[JackANSI]

Keep church and state seperate, but still collect taxes. Churches benefit from what part of our taxes go to pay for too.

I completely agree that people should be allowed to do a day like that themselves. But keep church and state seperate.


I find it quite amusing on many levels though..

Religious types having to single out a day like that on their own (now that the government can't do it for them ) for something they should be doing many times a day anyway.

The same people probably getting all fired up with hate for the judge and her ruling (and Obama/other elected people if they didn't defend it)

These supposedly humble folks seeking the recognition of their form of prayer and feeling they deserve a day set aside for them/it.

And many more

[Hawk]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no "separation of church and state" in the constitution. It does state that the government shall not choose one religion over another religion.

The first National Day of Prayer was designated by the Continental Congress in 1775. They declared that it was "a time for prayer in forming a new nation". So it originated by a God loving Congress.

President John Adams ask for a solemn day of prayer and fasting May 9th 1798, from all faiths, to pray "that our country be protected from all dangers which threaten it".

Lincoln issued a "proclamation" designating a day of prayer recognising "the Supreme Almighty and a just government of Almighty God..."

Then in 1952 President Harry Truman signed a bill recognising a national day of prayer where every succeeding president would pick his own day as a national day of prayer.

.......................

Being that none of the presidents or congress chose a particular religion, I don't see how it was unconstitutional. Nor do I understand how an agnostic or an atheist would be offended by others praying for the good of the country. At best, they could laugh it off that we are praying to someone that (to them) does not even exist.

Now the problem with prayer in schools is different in that if some idiot recognises Saten as someone to worship, and they wanted to pray to Luscifer in school , they could call that their religion. If you let one religion pray, you would have to let every religion pray so as not to choose one over another. So to keep out devil worship we have to bypass worshiping God in schools or public places.

[Hawk]

I find it quite amusing on many levels though..

Religious types having to single out a day like that on their own (now that the government can't do it for them ) for something they should be doing many times a day anyway.

These supposedly humble folks seeking the recognition of their form of prayer and feeling they deserve a day set aside for them/it.

Jack, we do pray every day. A national day of prayer would be where all religions get together to pray for the country.

Now that you have insulted me with your ignorance, lumping us all into "Religious types" followed by your lack of knowledge relative to the reasoning behind a "National Day of Prayer", show me where it says "separation of church and state" in the constitution. Unless you are thinking of the Former Soviet Union, they had written "separation of church and state" into their constitution.

[Merge]

Songsmith is correct, the Constitution does state that, but that only applies to the federal govt. It doesn't say that the states can't do it. I don't see an issue with a national day of prayer, as that day wouldn't be singling out a certain religion. They're not saying "Only Christians can have a day of prayer, the rest of you will have to without". I do find it odd that a judge has deemed this unconstitutional, but last year muslims were able to have their day of prayer on the grounds of the Capital Building.

[bassist_25]

[JackANSI]

I find it quite amusing on many levels though..

Religious types having to single out a day like that on their own (now that the government can't do it for them ) for something they should be doing many times a day anyway.

These supposedly humble folks seeking the recognition of their form of prayer and feeling they deserve a day set aside for them/it.

Jack, we do pray every day. A national day of prayer would be where all religions get together to pray for the country.

Now that you have insulted me with your ignorance, lumping us all into "Religious types" followed by your lack of knowledge relative to the reasoning behind a "National Day of Prayer", show me where it says "separation of church and state" in the constitution. Unless you are thinking of the Former Soviet Union, they had written "separation of church and state" into their constitution.

Take deep breath and show me where I said the constitution said that. I didn't even use the word. And don't go assuming I lumped anyone anywhere thank you very much. If you are true to your faith, then you know it didn't apply to you.

Ignorant? Is that what they teach in Sunday school these days?

[Hawk]

Keep church and state seperate...

But keep church and state seperate.


I find it quite amusing on many levels though..

Religious types having to single out a day like that on their own (now that the government can't do it for them ) for something they should be doing many times a day anyway.

The same people probably getting all fired up with hate for the judge and her ruling (and Obama/other elected people if they didn't defend it)

Yes, ignorant. It means a lack of knowledge. You fit the bill and the proof is in your post.

Through out history it was the government that ASKED for our prayers for the good of the country. You IGNORANTLY (lacked proper knowledge) thought people wanted the government to recognise "Religious types" to have the government to "single out a day" for those "Religious types". Through your ignorance, you showed that you don't know what you're talking about. I wanted to point that out - so I wrote the post.

Your point of keeping the church and state separate is relative to what some Non Religious Types think the constitution says.

Telling someone they are ignorant (I really don't think you knew the meaning of the word) is not against any religion as far as I know. BTW, I don't pretend to be holy by any account, nor am I morally better than some atheists. I just happen to believe in God and I pray.

[JackANSI]

They shouldn't even be asking, and even more to the point,
they shouldn't even need to.

Guess you just missed all that and jumped
right to the name calling.

talk about ignorant...

[Hawk]

They shouldn't even be asking, and even more to the point,
they shouldn't even need to.

Guess you just missed all that and jumped
right to the name calling.

talk about ignorant...

"Ignorant" is not a name (noun) it was a descriptive adjective. I was not name calling, I was telling you that you lacked knowledge. You did.

If you read the first post I wrote, you would see a history of prominent and highly respected Americans who ask us "Religious Types" to pray for our country.

Funny how I show you where you are wrong, yet you defend yourself rather than admit you were wrong. Ignorance IS bliss...

[JackANSI]

Since were going back to original posts...

Keep church and state seperate, but still collect taxes. Churches benefit from what part of our taxes go to pay for too.

I completely agree that people should be allowed to do a day like that themselves. But keep church and state seperate.

Here I'm just stating that I prefer church and state be seperate (primarily in response to someone saying about religion getting a 'say' if they chip in). I voiced roughly that (like some people's dislike of welfare) religion is capable of 'paying in' and it should. But it shouldn't get some kind of a direct vote because of that (the people of a church would then get more than one vote).

Remember, at this point you had yet to weigh in at all.

Not once did I mention the constitution. Thats what you were on about before you had to make the leap to 'ignorance'. You confused my post with someone else's and that was YOUR mistake, you were wrong. Then you had to roll on with 'ignorance' because thats all you had left. (double entendre intended). Which was also unfounded.

Religious types having to single out a day like that on their own (now that the government can't do it for them ) for something they should be doing many times a day anyway.

Here is where I come the closest to mentioning 'national day of prayer'. I also take it this insulted you. I just find all organized religion highly tainted as the people who 'practice' it hardly ever live up to its ideals and it usually seems to get worse the higher up you go through the ranks. This is seemingly proven time after time too.. Deal with it.

I also find the mild hypocrisy of the government recognizing a day that arugably applies to a vast majority of big government haters amusing.

You say you pray, you probably insert something like 'help our leaders', you probably do it at least once a day. So what does a worldly government recognizing do for you? Confirm faith? Confirm that you made the right choice in religion? It shouldn't matter and it sure as hell shouldn't be what the government does. That is what was rightfully found unconstitutional. Maybe you're having the issue understanding that?

Individuals can go ahead and ask for it, but they damn well better be representing the people they should be and not making a personal choice on the floor based on their personal religion alone (unless thats why they put him in office)

The same people probably getting all fired up with hate for the judge and her ruling (and Obama/other elected people if they didn't defend it)

Just using speculation based off the past about how easily some 'christians' are led to hate. (crosshairs anyone?)

These supposedly humble folks seeking the recognition of their form of prayer and feeling they deserve a day set aside for them/it.

A true christian shouldn't be asking/requiring/want something like this for themselves.

Also the day would have applied to any praying religion, but I can only imagine the uproar if Obama WAS muslim and he was video taped praying to mecca on the WH lawn. You'd see right soon that 'NDoP' was really a complete farce. Completely for 'christians' only, to confirm their influence on government as 'right'.

Funny how I show you where you are wrong, yet you defend yourself rather than admit you were wrong. Ignorance IS bliss...

You read my mind!

[Hawk]

Since were going back to original posts...

Keep church and state seperate, but still collect taxes. Churches benefit from what part of our taxes go to pay for too.

I completely agree that people should be allowed to do a day like that themselves. But keep church and state seperate.

Here I'm just stating that I prefer church and state be seperate (primarily in response to someone saying about religion getting a 'say' if they chip in). I voiced roughly that (like some people's dislike of welfare) religion is capable of 'paying in' and it should. But it shouldn't get some kind of a direct vote because of that (the people of a church would then get more than one vote).

I simply pointed out that the government has invoked God since 1775 and it is constitutional, as long as they don't choose one religion over another. I made no comment about churches paying taxes. That's another post altogether.

Since were going back to original posts...

Keep church and state seperate, but still collect taxes. Churches benefit from what part of our taxes go to pay for too.

I completely agree that people should be allowed to do a day like that themselves. But keep church and state seperate.

Here I'm just stating that I prefer church and state be seperate (primarily in response to someone saying about religion getting a 'say' if they chip in). I voiced roughly that (like some people's dislike of welfare) religion is capable of 'paying in' and it should. But it shouldn't get some kind of a direct vote because of that (the people of a church would then get more than one vote).

Remember, at this point you had yet to weigh in at all.

Not once did I mention the constitution. Thats what you were on about before you had to make the leap to 'ignorance'. You confused my post with someone else's and that was YOUR mistake, you were wrong. Then you had to roll on with 'ignorance' because thats all you had left. (double entendre intended). Which was also unfounded.

Religious types having to single out a day like that on their own (now that the government can't do it for them ) for something they should be doing many times a day anyway.

Here is where I come the closest to mentioning 'national day of prayer'. I also take it this insulted you. I just find all organized religion highly tainted as the people who 'practice' it hardly ever live up to its ideals and it usually seems to get worse the higher up you go through the ranks. This is seemingly proven time after time too.. Deal with it.

I also find the mild hypocrisy of the government recognizing a day that arugably applies to a vast majority of big government haters amusing.

You say you pray, you probably insert something like 'help our leaders', you probably do it at least once a day. So what does a worldly government recognizing do for you? Confirm faith? Confirm that you made the right choice in religion? It shouldn't matter and it sure as hell shouldn't be what the government does. That is what was rightfully found unconstitutional. Maybe you're having the issue understanding that?

Individuals can go ahead and ask for it, but they damn well better be representing the people they should be and not making a personal choice on the floor based on their personal religion alone (unless thats why they put him in office)

The same people probably getting all fired up with hate for the judge and her ruling (and Obama/other elected people if they didn't defend it)

Just using speculation based off the past about how easily some 'christians' are led to hate. (crosshairs anyone?)

These supposedly humble folks seeking the recognition of their form of prayer and feeling they deserve a day set aside for them/it.

A true christian shouldn't be asking/requiring/want something like this for themselves.

Also the day would have applied to any praying religion, but I can only imagine the uproar if Obama WAS muslim and he was video taped praying to mecca on the WH lawn. You'd see right soon that 'NDoP' was really a complete farce. Completely for 'christians' only, to confirm their influence on government as 'right'.

Funny how I show you where you are wrong, yet you defend yourself rather than admit you were wrong. Ignorance IS bliss...

You read my mind!

I don't have enough time right now to respond to everything. But understand that historically it was government asking for our prayers. Do you understand that yet ? It is NOT about asking the government to affirm religion.

I don not need the government to affirm my religion. There are MANY liberals who believe in God. You see to assume that (Lumping again) that the majority are big government haters. Ignorant again.

A national day of prayer has NOTHING to do with a day set aside for religious. Why are you so hard headed about that ? It was a day set aside for us to pray for the government. It also has nothing to do with an influence over the government.

You ignorance shows up again when you think we are asking for this for ourselves. It seems the point gtoes over your head repeatedly.

People continually forget that religions are made up of men and women. And religious people screw up as easily as non religious people. I always recognised my church (led by men) to be fallible, but in general, the majority recognise a want, to pray and learn together.

So while you laugh and wonder why we want a day set aside for us I'm trying to tell you that is not what a national day of prayer is for. It is not for religious affirmation (do you get that yet?) .

Simply put. You thought that a national day of prayer was for the religions. Check the post I wrote showing the history. You were/ARE wrong in thinking it was for religion. That is why you were and apparently still are ignorant of the fact.
EDIT:
Why do you find it a bad thing (as you seem to) for the government to ask people to pray for a better government ? It has nothing to do with any one religion. Simply because the church does not pay taxes ? The people who are church members do pay taxes. Because some religious hierarchy sin ? They do not represent the majority relative to our faith in a Supreme Being.

[f.sciarrillo]

I never thought I would say this, but, I agree with Bill on this.

[JackANSI]

It seems the point gtoes over your head repeatedly.

Its amazing how often that happened in this thread, to you.

The government has no place, NONE whatsoever, in any part of this. This shouldn't have ever been recognized by congress in the first place.

Why don't you see that?

[f.sciarrillo]

Well, seeing that one of the reasons this country was founded was on religious beliefs. I can't see where government doesn't have a hand in it. Look all around Washington and the money. It has been a staple for long time. What it appears today is that there are way too many people, well, about a .01% (from my guess anyhow, so don't take it as a grain of salt for proper stats) are trying to get it out. All I can say is good luck. The atheist, non christian liberals, agnostics, or whatever they call themselves today, can try all they want; they are not going to change something that is the basis for a founding of a country.

[lonewolf]

All this confirms what I have known for some time:

The US federal government hasn't got a prayer.

[Hawk]

These supposedly humble folks seeking the recognition of their form of prayer and feeling they deserve a day set aside for them/it.

This is my issue with you. You are completely WRONG in thinking that this is what a national day of prayer means. You seem to think "ignorant" is name calling. I realise you don't know the meaning of ignorant. It only means a lack of knowledge relative to a given subject. It is not an insult. For instance I am ignorant about quantum mechanics. I lack knowledge about quantum mechanics.

From your post, you were obviously ignorant to the reason for having a national day of prayer. [Many people in central PA use "ignorant" wrongly in place of "stupid" or in place of "rude". I used it correctly in pointing out you showed a lack of knowledge on the reason for the national day of prayer.]

If you study history a little, you will see that the Continental congress ask for a national day of prayer for creating a new government. These were many of the same people who wrote the Constitution. The writers of the constitution did not have a problem asking for prayers. I would interpret that as they thought it was not against the constitution they were writing, to ask for prayers. Wouldn't you say so ? Or do you know more about the constitution than the men who wrote it ?

Why has it been constitutional for over 200 years to ask for prayer and now it's not ? If you want a separation of church and state (as you have repeated) try Russia.

Why don't you get that the constitution specifies that the government does not choose one religion over another ? No where does it state that it is wrong to ask for prayer. Asking for prayer does NOT designate ANY religion. If Presidents like Abraham Lincoln wrote a proclamation for a day of prayer for the good of the country, I would say I respect his opinion over yours any day.

[Hawk]

The government has no place, NONE whatsoever, in any part of this. This shouldn't have ever been recognized by congress in the first place.

"In the first place" was by the men who wrote the constitution. The Continental CONGRESS. I defer to them on this matter. Where as your opinion differs from theirs.

Since they founded our country, I would say they knew better than you or any one judge that interprets for them today.

[hicksjd9]

It seems the intent of the authors of the constitution was to have a national day of prayer. The supreme court now holds themselves responsible for interpreting the constitution, but that has not always been the case. They manipulated themselves into that position a long time ago.

However, it seems to me that there is nothing to interpret when you consider that the authors of the constitution CREATED the first national day of prayer. There is nothing to interpret in that situation.

Judges should have never been allowed to legislate from the bench. The supreme court has way too much power as a single branch of government and that power was gained in a disreputable way. I mean the ONLY thing that can overturn one of their decisions is an AMMENDMENT to the constitution! The hoops that have to be jumped through for that to even happen are ENORMOUS!

[Hawk]

It seems the intent of the authors of the constitution was to have a national day of prayer. The supreme court now holds themselves responsible for interpreting the constitution, but that has not always been the case. They manipulated themselves into that position a long time ago.

However, it seems to me that there is nothing to interpret when you consider that the authors of the constitution CREATED the first national day of prayer. There is nothing to interpret in that situation.

Judges should have never been allowed to legislate from the bench. The supreme court has way too much power as a single branch of government and that power was gained in a disreputable way. I mean the ONLY thing that can overturn one of their decisions is an AMMENDMENT to the constitution! The hoops that have to be jumped through for that to even happen are ENORMOUS!

You are right. The Supreme Court seems to be over stepping it boundries more and more.

[bassist_25]

There are so many logical fallacies in this thread that it would make Aristotle's head fuckin' explode.

[Flaw]

There are so many logical fallacies in this thread that it would make Aristotle's head fuckin' explode.

lol

[f.sciarrillo]

There are so many logical fallacies in this thread that it would make Aristotle's head fuckin' explode.

You should know that there is no such thing as logic ...