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| Would you rather have: |
| Big Federal Government |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
| Small Federal Government |
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92% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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| Author |
Message |
lonewolf
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Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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 Posted: Friday Dec 07, 2007 |
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Since the other threads were going off-topic, here is a poll for that other gnawing question.
Just for clarification, Big Federal Government is the status quo.
Small Federal government would require state and local government to assume state and local issues that are now addressed by the Federal government. This would require that state and/or local government would need to raise taxes (offset by cuts in Federal taxes).
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Last edited by lonewolf on Sunday Dec 09, 2007; edited 1 time in total |
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lonewolf
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Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| songsmith wrote: | | You're right, lonewolf, I went way off topic with the anti-corporate rant. You have to admit, it's an important discussion, though... maybe we'll continue it elsewhere.---->JMS |
I have come to the conclusion that the only difference between the two major parties is which corporations and special interests get federal funding when they are in power.
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songsmith
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Joined: 09 Dec 2002
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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I fully agree. The wingnuts are concerned only for their pet issues and views. The best argument either side can come up with is, "look what THEY'RE doing!" There's no high ground... everybody wallows in the same pit and points fingers at the other team, and nothing good gets done.
I find myself becoming more and more of a "radical centrist." I'd love to see direct referendums for everything. Obviously, having a referendum vote for each issue is impossible and would take all our time, but it might silence the white noise coming from the wings... America votes on divisive issues like abortion, healthcare, immigration and the like, and the politickers would then have to enforce what the people want. It'd only work if the referendums were binding and irreversible. If abortion were illegal, I might not agree with it, but hey, America spoke, and I have to listen.
It goes without saying... it'll never happen. That's too much fricking power to give to the Great Unwashed. We can't even get rid of the Electoral College, an institution that takes my vote, and filters it through what richer (and ostensibly, smarter) people than myself want. I think it may have been a good thing in the first century or so of America's existence, before most folks were literate. Now, it's just a perk that rich folks have, being able to overturn a popular vote. That's like your boss having the final say in your union contract.-------->JMS |
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bassist_25
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 6815
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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Do you guys and gals think that we'd see a much different political climate, for good or bad, in America if we had compulsory voting?
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| bassist_25 wrote: | | Do you guys and gals think that we'd see a much different political climate, for good or bad, in America if we had compulsory voting? |
Not as long as there are essentially two parties to choose from.
Maybe if we added "None of the above" as an option?
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Hawk
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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I think the solution is somewhat simple. And a grassroots uproar from the public could pull it off.
Outlaw lobbying, which is nothing more than legalized bribery. Many members of congress are there just to get rich. It's like a stepping stone to become lobbyist. Any congressman who passes any project that is favorable to a company, should never be able to work for that company. [Many congressman who passed the most recent drug related bills retired after they passed, and went to work for the drug companies for $Millions. Can you say "pay-off']
Then we'll find congressman who actually want to work for the people, and stop working for the lobbyists.
Then these companies will no longer "own" congress or the president him/her self.
Next outlaw "earmarks". I would like to know how many billions earmarks cost the taxpayer ? These "earmarks" are added by self interest congressman to a bill that is about to pass. SUCKS with capital letters.
Like I always ask in this much repeated topic. Please name specific programs you wish to remove. If you say welfare it's been covered here over and over and over..............................
I want a government that protects it's citizens. If it takes a big government to do that, then so be it.
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Hawk
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Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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BTW I didn't vote. the question begs for a no response. It's worded in an unfair way to actually be a fair guide.
For Example:
When ask if we should do more for the poor, the response was an overwhelming yes.
When ask if we should do more for welfare, the response was a near 100% NO.
Ask :
What do you want the government to take away from you ? Because the more that was taken away from us, the smaller the government would be.
Perhaps a question that would garner a different outlook.
You will find that most people will remove things that don't affect themselves. Human natrure ? Take that away from THEM not US.
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lonewolf
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | BTW I didn't vote. the question begs for a no response. It's worded in an unfair way to actually be a fair guide.
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It is a very clearcut, unloaded question with no gray areas.
If you believe that government is presently about the right size and should support present programs and pick up new ones like healthcare, vote BIG.
If you believe that government has taken on significantly more than its share of programs and should be reduced in size, vote SMALL.
The REPLY area is where you make your case.
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Hawk
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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It's a totally loaded question. Only a fool would think otherwise, and you're no fool. Everyone would choose the obvious "Small" answer. You knew that before you wrote it. And they will say take away welfare. And we've been there.
Add a third choice.
Do you want the right size government ?
My question for you is, Precisely, what does a small governmet consist of ?
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lonewolf
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | | My question for you is, Precisely, what does a small governmet consist of ? |
1st of all, lets call welfare by its original, pre-LBJ name: Public Assistance (as in D.P.A). The term welfare is no more descriptive of the department than the word horseshit.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
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Last edited by lonewolf on Saturday Dec 08, 2007; edited 1 time in total |
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lonewolf
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | Add a third choice.
Do you want the right size government ?
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Now that's what I call ambiguous.
Notice, you left out a very critical word: Federal.
Just a little reminder that we do have state & local governments.
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Hawk
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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Do you think when that was written they could have envisioned the need for the FDA or NASA or ON and on and on ...............................
Public transportation is a necessity and it can't support itself, I am for funding such things.
The country has outgrown Section 8. Everyone realizes that but you. And perhaps a small minority of Libertarians. And I don't see them getting many votes for president. Because the people know better, not because they are complacent as you believe.
You already have your third party and the are being rejected handily.
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Hawk
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Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| lonewolf wrote: | | Hawk wrote: | Add a third choice.
Do you want the right size government ?
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Now that's what I call ambiguous.
Notice, you left out a very critical word: Federal.
Just a little reminder that we do have state & local governments. |
Ok FEDERAL my mistake again for forgetting to ad Federal.
Yes City, County and State........governments that need Federal government (financial) support. Sort of (Oh no.....you're going to dislike this) spreading the wealth.
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Hawk
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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Do you realize that this is a philosophical discussion of the Federal government. And you will never get your way. And for the most part, I already have my way.
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lonewolf
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Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | Do you think when that was written they could have envisioned the need for the FDA or NASA or ON and on and on ...............................
Public transportation is a necessity and it can't support itself, I am for funding such things. |
The FDA is a legitimate federal agency.
I agree that public transportation is extremely important. The federal treatment of public transportation in the U.S. is a big joke--to see that, all you have to do is try to get somewhere locally without a car. It is a perfect example of where citizens would be better served by the state and local governments where the services are needed.
The federal government was never intended to handle local issues.
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Hawk
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Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| lonewolf wrote: | | Hawk wrote: | Do you think when that was written they could have envisioned the need for the FDA or NASA or ON and on and on ...............................
Public transportation is a necessity and it can't support itself, I am for funding such things. |
The FDA is a legitimate federal agency.
I agree that public transportation is extremely important. The federal treatment of public transportation in the U.S. is a big joke--to see that, all you have to do is try to get somewhere locally without a car. It is a perfect example of where citizens would be better served by the state and local governments where the services are needed.
The federal government was never intended to handle local issues. |
\
But the Federal government financial support IS needed to handle local issues. And how that money is handled needs to come with rules to follow.
So what agencies are not legitimate Federal government agencies (besides your disliked welfare) ?
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lonewolf
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | | Do you realize that this is a philosophical discussion of the Federal government. And you will never get your way. And for the most part, I already have my way. |
Yes you do...its called
BIG BIG GOVERNMENT!
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lonewolf
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | | But the Federal government financial support IS needed to handle local issues. And how that money is handled needs to come with rules to follow. |
Please explain to me why we need the federal government to collect additional taxes from us for local issues, use up half of it on bureaucracy and then send half of the money back here along with a list of beltway rules.
Why not just collect 100% of the taxes here for local issues and just keep it here? (this, of course would be offset by the cut in federal taxes)
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Hawk
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| lonewolf wrote: | | Hawk wrote: | | But the Federal government financial support IS needed to handle local issues. And how that money is handled needs to come with rules to follow. |
Please explain to me why we need the federal government to collect additional taxes from us for local issues, use up half of it on bureaucracy and then send half of the money back here along with a list of beltway rules.
Why not just collect 100% of the taxes here for local issues and just keep it here? (this, of course would be offset by the cut in federal taxes) |
Come on, you already know this answer don't you ?
Some Cities are poor (Altoona for instance). Some counties are poorer than others. And I already answered this question before it was asked .
Your way would have poor cities die as city taxes are already at there limits. (And beyond.) If all cities like Altoona died off and we all moved to the richer cities you would see a rapid decline in the USA in general.
And I doubt 50% is used up in beuraucracy. Did you just make that up ? As you usually back up things like that with facts.
And the bureaucrats you dislike are tax paying citizens spending their earned money, which goes back into the economy.
"Beltway rules" ? What does that mean ? Examples please ?
And I already suggested a way to cut government spending.
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Hawk
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Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| lonewolf wrote: | | Hawk wrote: | | Do you realize that this is a philosophical discussion of the Federal government. And you will never get your way. And for the most part, I already have my way. |
Yes you do...its called
BIG BIG GOVERNMENT!
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It's not perfect, but it is the best in the world (Bush and cronies excluded).
I would like to see government waste cut and the measures I already pointed out. Then it WOULD become a smaller government. Like I said, a Correctly sized Federal Government.
My ideas are plausable. While (I dislike saying this) your Liberiterian ideas are not.
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Hawk
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Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: |
So what agencies are not legitimate Federal government agencies (besides your disliked welfare) ? |
?
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Hawk
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| Posted: Saturday Dec 08, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: |
Yes City, County and State........governments that need Federal government (financial) support. Sort of (Oh no.....you're going to dislike this) spreading the wealth. |
Answered before asked.
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lonewolf
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Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Sunday Dec 09, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | | Hawk wrote: |
Yes City, County and State........governments that need Federal government (financial) support. Sort of (Oh no.....you're going to dislike this) spreading the wealth. |
Answered before asked. |
1st of all, the feds haven't done Altoona any favors. But you are correct, there is disparity (I blame the feds meddling for that). If most of these local issues were transferred to the states, I would not mind a temporary federal slush fund that would be used to equalize this disparity--at a minimum and for a limited time. However, we cannot expect the feds to bail Blair County forever...that is a task for Blair Countians. If we cannot do it on our own over time, we don't deserve it.
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songsmith
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 6108
Location: The Wood of Bells
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| Posted: Sunday Dec 09, 2007 |
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| Oddly, I have nothing to add at this point. Great volley, guys, I'm watching a discussion that should be held in Washington. If talk radio were this good, I'd be riveted all the time.--->JMS |
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lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
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| Posted: Monday Dec 10, 2007 |
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| Hawk wrote: | | Hawk wrote: |
So what agencies are not legitimate Federal government agencies (besides your disliked welfare) ? |
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First off, The Departments of Education and Energy. Both huge failures.
Education was intentionally excluded from the Constitution because it is a local issue. College grants would make a good candidate for a part of a small and efficient federal slush fund.
Energy? Some things are self-evident. The NRC & NNSA should be kept and maybe even combined.
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