MERCHANDISE SALES ILLEGAL IN BARS?
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Jim Price
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Joined: 07 Dec 2002
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Location: Altoona, PA
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 Posted: Saturday Oct 11, 2003 |
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IF YOU SELL CD’S, T-SHIRTS OR OTHER MERCHANDISE at a liquor-licensed establishment, you may be in violation of PLCB law?
A PLCB agent recently visited an Altoona live music establishment and ordered that a band’s merchandise stand be dismantled and removed, because it was in violation of some provision of the Liquor Code prohibiting a business operating within a liquor-licensed business. I am currently researching the Liquor Code to see if I can locate the law or provision that might apply to this situation. According to what the PLCB agent told the venue operator, the only way a merchandise stand could legally be operated within the establishment was if permission was requested from the PLCB and granted beforehand; and the venue owner would then receive a percentage of the merchandise sales.
If anybody has any further information or insight into this, let us hear from you. I am particularly interested in what part(s) of the Liquor Code and its amendments might apply to this situation, their reasoning for such a provision to the Liquor Code existing; and what the sales of band merchandise within a licensed establishment has to do with the actual sale of liquor itself, which is what the PLCB should be concerned with. Anyone with insight on this, feel free to respond… |
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Killjingle
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Location: Elton
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| Posted: Saturday Oct 11, 2003 |
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The Embalmed encountered a similar situation a few years ago. Darren wanted to take his gf to a local nightclub that we were playing at. She was under 21 so he decided to contact the PLCB to see if he could legally get her in "working" for the band. When asked what her job duties would entail, he responded selling merchandise. They responded promptly letting him know that it is against PLCB regulations to do as such. They gave him the same explanation you just laid out.
What a load of crap. The Embalmed wouldnt have survived as long as it did without putting our t shirts and cd's into people's hands, and just where are we supposed to do that???? I wonder if you are asking for a "donation", as opposed to "selling", if it circumvents the rule. |
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Killjingle
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Location: Elton
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| Posted: Saturday Oct 11, 2003 |
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3.52. Connection with other business.
(a) A licensee may not permit other persons to operate another business on the licensed premises.
(b) Licensed premises may not have an inside passage or communication to or with any business conducted by the licensee or other persons except as approved by the Board.
(c) A licensee may not conduct another business on the licensed premises without Board approval.
Source
The provisions of this § 3.52 adopted June 24, 1970, effective June 25, 1970, 1 Pa.B. 78; amended March 20, 1998, effective March 21, 1998, 28 Pa.B. 1418. Immediately preceding text appears at serial page (234061)
for more info go to http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/040/chapter3/s3.52.html |
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Killjingle
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songsmith
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Location: The Wood of Bells
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| Posted: Sunday Oct 12, 2003 |
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| WAY OFF TOPIC (sorry)---- Dude, that is the coolest avatar ever! I want that picture for my desktop background...where did you find it? PM me the info so we don't bother the thread, please. Oh. BTW, I mean the one with Johnny Cash flipping the bird.------>JMS |
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JohnTrain
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| Posted: Tuesday Oct 14, 2003 |
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Looks like Deviance1 has exactly the right provision. It's not a law but is from the regulations of the Liquor Control Board (which has the effect of law but is not a statute, it just means it's enforcable like a law is). The full cite would be 40 Pa. Code Section 3.52
Here's an interesting challenge to the reg. (from what little I can tell, the term 'business' is not defined in the regulations.) A blurb describing a case- MAG Enterprises, Inc. v. Liquor Control Board, 806 A.2d 521 (Pa. Commonwealth Court, 2002): "Although entertainers who dance at the licensee's gentlemen's club are independent contractors, they are part and parcel of the licensee's business, and do not constitute "another business" operating on the licensee's premises".
Are bands 'part and parcel' and independent contractors? or are they simply another business 'operating on the licensee's premises?
Darned if I know, and Happy b-day JP> |
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FatVin
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Location: Duncansvile, PA
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| Posted: Tuesday Oct 14, 2003 |
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I think John Train's Question is the issue. You could argue that bands are an independant contractor, In fact I've argued for years that the band is like any other service a bar could hire, like the beer distributor or the guy who fixes the pinball machine. Most bars run 5 even 6 days a week without bands so you could argue this is so but The problem here is that you don't get to shake this one out at a real court. When challenged you have to go to a PLCB Kustom Kangaroo Kourt and you're guilty for as much as they feel like fining you so NO BAR OWNERS will stand up for you. I think we should keep this one quiet else nobody will be allowed to sell anything.
Let's See, we're not allowed to be louder than can be heard with a stethascope through the walls, we're not allowed to be seen through the windows (did you know that?), We're not allowed to sell t-shirts or CD's or posters or anything for that matter. What are we allowed to do?
WE HAVE TWO CHOICES HERE: 1. Divorce ourselves from bars and liquor (yeah, that's gonna happen) or 2. involve ourselves more in the political process, VOTE, call your representatives, a lot of these laws have been on the books for a long time and only now are beginning to be enforced WHY? Who's responsible, I don't remember bands and bars having troubles like these in the old days, what's new. That's what we need to find out.
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BDR
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Location: Shelocta, PA
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| Posted: Tuesday Oct 14, 2003 |
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Give your CDs, T's and other merchandise away. Consider it a business expense. You won't be sorry. And no, I'm not on crack.
r:>)
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FatVin
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| Posted: Wednesday Oct 15, 2003 |
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Rob,
I don't want you to read what I'm about to type as personal disrespect. This is not the time for Pollyanna Peacekeeper. This is the time to GET PISSED OFF. You do this a lot bud, you come up with some sunshiny thing to say to keep the peace and again, no disrespect, THIS AIN'T THE TIME FOR IT.
I know you have the best of intentions and frankly I admire you for that but it's obvious that you just don't get it. WE MUSICIANS ARE UNDER SEIGE. There are people out there who don't want anybody playing anything and we have to defend ourselves.
A while I back I began a petition to get some laws changed and while we managed to get some superficial changes, we failed utterly because too many people didn't wanna make waves. The LAWS concerning entertainment in Pennslyvania are dispicable but they stay on the books because nobody wants to rock the boat, nobody wants to stick their necks out, nobody wants to vote or encourage others to do the same.
Sell our Cd's, give them away, it's not the point, the point is to stand up and fight for our RIGHT to do business, are we less than the guy who sells hardware?, are we less than the guy who opens yet another chain restaraunt?, are we less than the insurance company or the telemarketer? well, in the current political climate the answer is YES
Do you know why? Because of the "Don't make a fuss" attitude. I'm not picking on you personally, Rob, I know there are a lot of people thinking "Vin, relax, it's just some CD's". Well, it's not just some CD's, it's not "Only rock and Roll" it's about rights and principles. We need to stand up for ours or they will be taken away. in fact they ARE being taken away.
Ben Franklin once said "He who gives up liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety". When we knuckle under to these illconceived statutes that's what we are doing. What would Franklin think of us.
It cracks me up, if somebody was interefering with your right to go hunt deer or to drink beer, you wouldn't sit still for it, how can you not defend with equal vigor the your right to make music
The arbitrary enforcement of laws that are too restrictive to begin with is a battle for the very survival of live music in PA. I'll fight this fight as long as there is breath in my body but If I go alone I'll lose. I need your help, Rob, not just lip service but your deeds to help all musicians in PA and that goes for anybody who reads this. WE MUSICIANS MUST AVAIL OURSELVES OF THE POLITICAL AND LEGISLATIVE PROCESS, WE MUST OR WE WILL ALL GO THEY WAY OF THE DODO AND THAT RIGHT SOON!
Some of you reading this have kids, what message are you sending them by refusing to stand up for your rights. You tell them to knuckle under to authority, you tell them peace at any cost is good thing, you tell them that the American dream is bullshit and you can't fight city hall.
Is that what you believe? , if so, why be a musician at all, there will always be a fry cook job opening soon, somebody will always need their floor mopped.
Me, I'd rather die penniless AND PROBABLY WILL
It's not personal, Rob, again, you're not a bad guy and you don't like making problems but they are counting on that. I know there are many people who are thinking "why make a fuss". The people who hate music and musicians and everything we stand for ARE making a fuss, that's why they are winning. It's not personal, it's prinicple.
SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC AND FUCK THE PLCB!
and by the way I love the Johnny cash pic, we should make that into a battle flag or some thing.
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Jim Price
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Location: Altoona, PA
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| Posted: Wednesday Oct 15, 2003 |
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Like Deviance1, I too am curious about how Crowbar fared with their inquiry. Like the underage issue earlier this year, the merchandise issue has the potential to really screw things up; not just in local bands being able to sell CD's and merchandise at gigs, but even national names coming through a venue like Crowbar. If enforced in the strictest manner, this provision about selling merchandise could again scare a lot of the national music industry away from our state, as merchandise sales at gigs is a major part of the band/label income equation.
I agree with FatVin, we can fight to change provisions of the Liquor Code, but it may have to go further and target the legislators who keep putting these stupid provisions into the Code to begin with. It seems the state and PLCB are gung-ho about harassing a segment of the state's business population, and with it, a big part of the state's music industry as well.
And I suspect - as with the chaperone controversy earlier - the merchandise sales in bars provision probably came about because some legislator tagged it onto another bill, and it passed as a quick and hasty decision without much thought being given to the possible consequences and long-term effects.
It looks like I might have to get my letter-writing pen ready again... |
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Killjingle
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Location: Elton
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| Posted: Wednesday Oct 15, 2003 |
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"and it passed as a quick and hasty decision without much thought being given to the possible consequences and long-term effects"
what if this wasnt a hasty decision? what is this was simply a way for the unsuspecting bar owner to have to pay more sales taxes, and application fees?
I like beer. I drink beer. Sometimes to little, but never too much. I wonder how many people that enforce regulations set forth by the PLCB like to drink. As in a court room, are we judged by our peers? Or are we stereotyped as a "black eye". After reading the code at least one of the ppl on the board had to have owned a gentleman's club, because I notice that didnt seem to be a problem.
I disagree with Rob too. I am not interested in just allowing stupid rules dictate the way I am trying to run my business. And its not like we jack up prices on our merchandise to get rich. It is a way for us to reinvest in the band, in ways such as future recordings, light shows, silk screen setups, gas money, and oh lets not forget: equipment.
I just hope that if this gains any kind of popularity in the public eye that the ppl who fight for the right to sell merch in a bar will not be viewed as greedy, like those who fought for copyright issues on file sharing networks. Public perception still is extremely important when trying to grow your business. On the other hand, if I tell John X after he asks me why my tshirts cost an additional $2, and I let him know that the 2 bucks goes to the bar that HE ALREADY PAID COVER TO GET INTO, and the bottle of beer that he PAID $2.50 FOR (which is normally $1.50 except when a band plays) I am pretty confident that he/she would be interested in helping to abolish these rules. And dont get me wrong, I have no problem with a bar owner making money, but what about all of the blood, sweat, and tears that we as musicians give? By getting rid of this rule we can MAYBE make a FEW bucks, keep costs lower, and John X can save his $2, go to Sheetz, by a bag of chips and a soda, and the economy can prosper(LOL).
Chad |
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JohnTrain
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| Posted: Thursday Oct 16, 2003 |
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JP-- just to keep a bit of the thread straight: No law had to be changed to come up with these Code provisions. D-1's first post showed the regulations were adopted in 1970 and revised a few times. They could have been revised due to a change in the law or they could have just been revised because the LCB had some reason or cause to.
Think of it this way. The law charges an agency to do this or that. In order to do this or that, the agency has to adopt regulations to spell out the details. (it's a somewhat long and very official process, once done, the practical effect is the regulations have the effect of law). I haven't gone back to the original law (most likely the Liquor Code) to find the law upon which the regs were promulgated (and the Code dosn't give very specific reference). It's very likely this is one of those "we need this to do our job" kinda things rather than the legislature sitting down and specifying in statute the details of the operation of businesses and licencees.
I just put this all down to indicate that this is different than the Chaperone Caper. That was a change in law and done by the legislature.
2 thoughts for the day. Vin could not be more right. But, short of a single dedicated state legislator willing to comprehensivly address the music/venue issues, I don't see how individuals penetrate the legislative process and move the ball uphill (as opposed to its continual rolling downhill and over both musicians and venues). Someone needs to root out an individual with a performing backround/tavern backround, or genuine concern for the issues (especialy the freedom principals involved).
2: I think there may be a strong argument that the 'other business' idea, just like for dancers, does not apply to bands. I'd base a lot of that on the fact that the statute (which governs the Code/regulations) specifically provides for entertainers in licenced establishments. (that's stronger than what dancer's relied on to be permitted). Then the question becomes one of what is 'customary' behavior/conduct of entertainers (bands in this case). If they have forever been selling 'merch', then I don't see how you can say they are conducting a separate business. But, like Vin said-- this goes to the regulator first, not a real court. With enough money, and the right arguments, a real court would likely be convinced that such sales are not independent but part and parcel of the function of the band.
Has the Crowbar filed for an official advisement or opinion of some sort? |
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FatVin
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Location: Duncansvile, PA
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| Posted: Thursday Oct 16, 2003 |
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a single dedicated state legislator isn't gonna do it. We need to get at least two. 2004 is an election year. We need to use our abilities to draw crowds to our advantage. Now I've been brushed off and blown off by most of the State reps in this area. Yeah once in a while I'll get a sit down with a staffer and they cluck their toungues but very little if anything gets done.
What If two things happen, first, what if, we musicians go shopping for a state rep or state senatorial canidate who will understand what we need to happen, what if we work for that canidate, play fund raising shows, encourage voting on stage etc, and Second, what if we talk to our brother musicians in other parts of the state and they do the same.
We humble musicians have the power to get this done but we need to dedicate ourselves to the task. What do you think?
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BDR
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| Posted: Thursday Oct 16, 2003 |
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| FatVin wrote: | | Rob...I know you have the best of intentions and frankly I admire you for that but it's obvious that you just don't get it. |
Vin,
You and I have been friends for years and you know me to be a reasonable and easy-going person. I know that you direct no ill-will or disrespect toward me. But, if you're suggesting that I "don't get" your position in this situation, you're incorrect. I respect and admire your passion for standing up for the good of the common man and I support it. If you're suggesting I "don't get" the business of entertainment and the impact that certain ordinances and regulations have on it, you are also incorrect. I run both my band and my night club (LOUIE's AFTER DARK, Short Mountain, entertainment 7 nights a week...shameless plug...lol.) as businesses. Every business has rules and regulations to govern the way they are operated. When those rules and regs become roadblocks, you have two choices:
1) Take the time to fight and effect change, or,
2) Look for ways to adapt.
A lot of the time, I've found in business, the second option is usually the quickest and less costly road to take, in terms of both time and money. There are instances where the first option is absolutely necessary, of course. It makes me think of family law. I've been divorced twice. The first was ugly, messy and costly. Due to circumstances I won't get into, Option 1 was the only option. In turn, years and $$$ were spent in court, time and money that could've been used for more productive activities. My second divorce was amicable. We both decided to take Option 2 and things went smoothly, little to nothing was spent on legal fees and it was over quick.
I am by no means passive, Vin. When the chaperone law situation arose, if you check, I believe I was one of the first ten to sign the petition you circulated. And I know I was one of the first local bands to put a link to the petition on my Web site. If my township ever flirted with the idea of becoming dry, you can bet I'd be at every mother f#ckin' township meeting, sitting in the front row holding a placard on a stick. The thing is, in this situation, I feel I can take Option 2. Before I came across this thread, it was my position that, as bands on this level, merchandise should be considered a business expense. The way I see it, if I accept the cost of producing CDs as an expense and just hand them out to everyone, my CD will be listened to by far more people than if I were to ask people to spend their drinking money. I'm sure songsmith agrees with that. Same with T's, bumper stickers, whatever. That band name is going out the door all over the place...what price can you put on exposure? That's how fan bases are built. But this is just my approach. I'm not saying everyone should agree with or do things the way I do, but this is just one part of my business philosophy. It's what works for me. Do I feel you should be able to sell your merchandise if you choose? Hell yes. Will I sign your upcoming petition, Vin? You're damn straight. Will I march on Capitol Hill concerning this issue? Probably not, but you do have my support. I just choose to take Option 2 on this issue where my band is concerned.
I get more than you think, my friend. Stay loose and rock on...
r:>)
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FatVin
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| Posted: Thursday Oct 16, 2003 |
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Rob,
You KNOW I meant you no disrepect, What you said about absorbing the cost of mech as a business expense was well thought out and whether or not I agree or disagree has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. I was and am VERY concerned about the fact that people don't have a choice, the regs as you say "have become a roadblock"
What's more important is whether or not it is time to fight or time to adapt.
I say fight, but fight the right battle, at the right time, with the right weapons. All 3 are at our disposal.
We can't touch the PLCB itself, it's too insulated, too politically entrenched, but it can't enforce a law that isn't on the books anymore and must enforce a new law, so if we fight to change a law, we've got the right battle.
It's an election year in 2004, there will never be a better time to exert pressure on those people who make the laws than right now, when THEY NEED US. so it's the right time.
What do we do musicians have that politicians need?, you might ask, crowds and microphones. we draw a crowd, crowds who might Vote or donate campaign money to any canidate the person with the microphone may suggest. In politics, it's the only weapon that counts.
It's time to fight, baby, oh yes, It's time to fight. You may disagree and it would be your privilidge to do so, but this is a fight that in my opinion can bring benefits win or lose but I really do think it can be won so I say fight.
Yes, you've been supportive in the past and I certainly appreciate that. Will there be more petitions?, I dunno, the last one didn't accomplish that much, right now, I'm looking for a canidate for the PA State house (more on that as it develops) and don't worry, I won't ask you to march on Capitol hill, but I might need ya to take a drive to Harrisburgh with me, lol
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bassist_25
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| Posted: Sunday Oct 19, 2003 |
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| FatVin wrote: | A while I back I began a petition to get some laws changed and while we managed to get some superficial changes, we failed utterly because too many people didn't wanna make waves. The LAWS concerning entertainment in Pennslyvania are dispicable but they stay on the books because nobody wants to rock the boat, nobody wants to stick their necks out, nobody wants to vote or encourage others to do the same.
Sell our Cd's, give them away, it's not the point, the point is to stand up and fight for our RIGHT to do business, are we less than the guy who sells hardware?, are we less than the guy who opens yet another chain restaraunt?, are we less than the insurance company or the telemarketer? well, in the current political climate the answer is YES
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You know, when I signed the petition for the noise ordinance you created, I couldn't believe the fact that there were hardly any signatures posted. (or at least as many as I thought there should have been) It made me a little indignant and kind of sad that people weren't willing to stand up for something that they, otherwise, put forth a lot of time and effort into. I guess that's just another facet of the 1st amendment: You have the right to say what's on your mind, but you also have the right not to say what's on your mind. I guess it also supports my theory that the freedom of speech cannot truly exist in a capitalistic society: It's hard to say what's on your mind when it could potentially be bad for business.
And that's not saying I'm a hippie or some extreme left-wing, Karl Marx worshipping radical, sent here to fuck up the system. I'm pretty much a libertarian and that's why I think this law is so asinine. I think it should be up to the venue whether they should allow a band to solicit merchandise on their property. I really don't see any ethical or moral problems that selling merch would cause. It really wouldn't be a bait-and-switch tactic since the primary reason people would be going out is to drink/see the band. It's more of an impulse item. I could be wrong, but I think the motivation behind this type of law is purely fiscal. A lot of this may have to do with bands claiming taxes. If someone selling a t-shirt for that cost 5 dollars flat, it doesn't take someone with a BA in economics to realize that none of that includes sales tax. I'm not saying anyone should admit to whether they claim taxes nor am I going to admit that information, but I think that government agencies may be looking at bands as businesses that are usually "under the table".
I think the second reason bands may be having trouble is: Does the government really look at musical entertainment as a legitimate business or a hobby with monetary rewards? My guess is the latter. If we showed politicians that the local music industry is just that: an industry, I think we would see greater progress.
As far as the shopping for a politician that will be the voice of us; I was a bit skeptical at first. I wasn't sure if it would be a good idea to mix music and politics out in the public like that. Let's face it, Central PA is a very political/nepotistical area and unforunately, saying the wrong thing to the wrong person could have highly negative effects. (there's that freedom of speech/capitalism onus again) It would suck having the Pennsylvania version of the Dixie Chicks incident happening. The more I thought about it though, I came to the conclusion that anybody who goes clubbing and enjoys listening to local bands, whether they are liberal or conservative, would be foolish not to support something like this.
Either way, I think it's great that we are talking about these things. I think the country is in a very volatile political state right now and voting is going to be very important.
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Ron
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| Posted: Friday Oct 31, 2003 |
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| bassist_25 wrote: |
Sell our Cd's, give them away, it's not the point, the point is to stand up and fight for our RIGHT to do business, are we less than the guy who sells hardware?, are we less than the guy who opens yet another chain restaraunt?, are we less than the insurance company or the telemarketer? well, in the current political climate the answer is YES
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Dude, you are RIGHT on the money. Your opinions are supported by MOST of the State legislatures in our Country. Most people don't know it, but Pa. theoretically ISN'T A STATE. ( Though I love it and my ancestry was here WAY before 1776. ) It's a Commonwealth. That gives our "state" certain... you might say... loopholes. The federal gov't treats "Commonwealths" differently than "States". Can you say "PLCB"?
Just some food 'fer thought. Check it out and report back. ( I'm definitely no expert.  )
Wouldn't it be awesome if we made the national news because of our collective, realistic views?
Ron
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Jim Price
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| Posted: Friday Oct 31, 2003 |
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Here's a thought that popped into my mind recently that might warrant some consideration: How about the formation of a watchdog group to keep tabs on the PLCB/LCE/state legislature, and blow the whistle and make noise when it sees injustices carried out by that system? I'm thinking along the lines of what Ralph Nader used to do with his consumer watchdog groups. If such a group could be put together, and could enlist at least one person with a thorough understanding of the law (legal expert), the group could monitor cases involving the PLCB, and generate publicity and attention when it sees something wrong being done (a.k.a. the Liquor Board's own "Kustom Kangaroo Kourt," as Fat Vin put it). It could then send out press releases to media outlets to generate attention and publicity on the issue. The watchdog group itself wouldn't be able to change the law or reverse a decision, but it could generate enough publicity to arouse the interest of the public, legislators/politicians who can change the law, etc. and become a real pain in the neck for the PLCB and the politicos associated with it.
What do you think? Is such an idea feasible or realistic?
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JohnTrain
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| Posted: Friday Oct 31, 2003 |
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Even if it might be a good idea, I suspect it's a non-starter.
Couple reasons.
Volunteers (even if good) vrs. a paid full time system. An uneven match.
The coverage of the times where the Plcb or State Police really screw up, well, it's just not life or death, and won't mean much to the media. (It's just not so hot a story that one place got unfair noise violations, or that the local enforcers are handing out violations like candy on Halloween. Besides, they'll hem and haw to the media, or lay off for a bit then they do as they please). The Media is not vigilent or patient. It has the attention span and stick-to-it-ness of a 3 year old.
The big one: what establishment wants to be a party to fighting these folks. (remember, they could do that now-- but they are gunshy-- who has the money to fight em over every citation?). I think they would shy from the light- hey, the enforcers will sure be there tomorrow, but the volunteers may not be.
Hate to negative, but I'm not optimistic. |
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FatVin
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| Posted: Friday Oct 31, 2003 |
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This is exactly why this cause needs a champion IN THE LEGISLATURE and we need to make it our business to see that bands ARE thought of as a small business and that we are treated with the respect we deserve. The idea that, well, it's a non starter, so let's not try. Need I say it again 2004 is an elction year, EVERY member of the state house and more than a few of the state senate for up for re-election, why can't this issue be discussed? It's as good an issue as any in PA. If you have ideas let's hear them, I'm open to any thing that ain't givin up.
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HurricaneBob
AA Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 2790
Location: /root/2/pub
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| Posted: Friday Oct 31, 2003 |
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| Someone had pictures of all PLCB agents one time when i worked at the Palace, not sure where or how they got them. If we knew what they looked like we could all be on the watch when we are giggin. Ill dig into this see what i can come up with.. |
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bassist_25
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 6815
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Friday Oct 31, 2003 |
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| JohnTrain wrote: |
Volunteers (even if good) vrs. a paid full time system. An uneven match.
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That would be the point of the benefit shows spoken about earlier. I think Howard Dean's presidential campaign is a great example of grass roots support. As I said earlier, this is a very volatile time for politics. Lines are being drawn right now over the presidential election. Why not take advantage of the situation to let people understand our agenda? Hell, why can't one of us run for office? If California can have an action movie star for a governor, why can't PA have a professional musician? 
| JohnTrain wrote: |
The coverage of the times where the Plcb or State Police really screw up, well, it's just not life or death, and won't mean much to the media. (It's just not so hot a story that one place got unfair noise violations, or that the local enforcers are handing out violations like candy on Halloween. Besides, they'll hem and haw to the media, or lay off for a bit then they do as they please). The Media is not vigilent or patient. It has the attention span and stick-to-it-ness of a 3 year old.
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When you stir shit, it's stinks. I doubt that Action 10 News is going cover anything that happens at first, but musicians do have a great media outlet: Pennsylvainia Musician Magazine. If people start talking about things, it becomes news.
| JohnTrain wrote: |
The big one: what establishment wants to be a party to fighting these folks. (remember, they could do that now-- but they are gunshy-- who has the money to fight em over every citation?). I think they would shy from the light- hey, the enforcers will sure be there tomorrow, but the volunteers may not be.
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That's why we have to get off of our duffs and quit being so damn apathetic.
| JohnTrain wrote: |
Hate to negative, but I'm not optimistic. |
That's cool. I understand your points. I'm a pretty "glass is half empty" guy myself, but I've been an idiosyncrasy in society all of my life. So I've learned that you have to make as much noise as possible. As I said before, this area is very political/nepotistical, so people who aren't sychophants or don't have the right last name have to yell 3 times louder. As John Mellencamp once said: You have to stand for something, or you're going to fall for anything
*gets off self-righteous soapbox*
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"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film. |
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JohnTrain
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Monday Nov 03, 2003 |
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A soapbox, if nothing else is available, is not a bad place to be.
May seem like I was being negative, but that's only where half my head and none of my heart is. I just think that particular idea is a tough row to hoe.
I'm much more optimistic re: finding (or making) a receptive legislator (ultimately, that is the source of the difficulties), getting bands to make an impression with fans (ripping off Vin's ant analogy-- a half dozen ants contact legislators and they think the house is infested-- exactly the impression that needs to be made here, i.e., lots of us 'little people' actually give a hoot about all this).
Other things, lots of things, I'm optimistic about. I think their is a loaf of good things that could and should be reasonably asked for in relation to musicans plying their trade. I don't think musicians have to settle for a slice or even a couple slices. |
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tom
Gold Member
Joined: 15 Dec 2002
Posts: 184
Location: toona
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| Posted: Monday Nov 03, 2003 |
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| The downside that I see to this situation is tax liability...... IF we can lobby for changes to the code to allow for merchandise sales, how long will it be until the state wants to see their piece of the pie??? How many bands in this area actually report all of their earnings? This could do harm to all of the small bands in the area , as well as the club owners who don't report revenue from the bands... If we win this battle, how long will it be before they find another way to jam it up our rectum? This is a worthwhile fight, but we should be prepared to deal with the "snowball effect" that this could cause. |
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FatVin
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 521
Location: Duncansvile, PA
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| Posted: Monday Nov 03, 2003 |
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Tom has an excellant point. This may very well open us up to tax liability and that would be bad. but not half as bad as allowing things to continue the way they are going. If we get involved in the legislative process, at least we can exercise some control over what taxes we might have to pay, and we can keep the gov't from double or even triple dipping into our income. When you work outside of the restrictions of the law you are denied it's protection. If we have a "Musicians bill of rights" we have recourse against those looking to rip us off, without legal protection the PLCB, the clubs, and all those other people looking to take a piece can do so and there's nuthing we can do about it. Sooner or later the Gov't makes you pay anyway, we might as well be getting our money's worth.
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