| previous topic :: next topic |
| Author |
Message |
tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
|
 Posted: Thursday May 10, 2012 |
|
|
We've been running a small system this time around, set of 15's on a stick. The theory was to pretty much just play places this covered and its worked out rather well. We've even done a few jobs I thought we would be running a little slim and we OK.
Anyway to the question, considering going to a 15 / 8 and horn 3 way cab. Are they that much better than a 15/ horn 2 way cab. We're running Kick through the 15's we have now and we get enough kick to add some presence to it in the PA wich is all we need in the rooms we play.
Also any suggestions on a good set, they are not as popular and easy to find as the 2 ways. I'm looking for a lightweight set, molded cabs would be great.
_________________
Don't bitch to me about the economy while you're still buying Chinese products. |
|
| Back to top » |
|
 |
lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
|
| Posted: Thursday May 10, 2012 |
|
|
Depends on the model and the crossover frequencies. Generally, a 3-way with 2 speakers tends to be less efficient than a cabinet where a good deal of the sound is coming thru the horn. That means less volume per watt. Generally, it makes up with it with a warmer sound. Generally.
The best small club model I can think of is the EAW FR153z. Big bucks. There was a set on here a few months ago for cheap, but they are gone. EV makes the QRX153. You might want to go down to Ford music and see what Peavey stuff they are blowing out too. I'm not a big Peavey fan, but they can sometimes surprise ya.
A 3-way with an 8" speaker might improve the guitar tone by routing most of the guitar frequencies thru the speakers instead of the horn.
Remember our old discussion about running guitar thru the PA and getting a "honky" sound like a saxophone?
honk! honk! LOL
_________________
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
|
| Posted: Thursday May 10, 2012 |
|
|
Jeff, I have been finding lower SPL ratings on the 3 way cabs and actually some bizare dips in certain frequency ranges that I wouldn't expect. so yes it looks like lower volume per watt like you say and it also looks like you would need some heavy EQ work to even it out. These are the reasons I was asking the question. I may just want to look into better quality 2 way than what I'm currently using.
As far as the honk, honk, LOL. I think it comes down to some other factors. If you voice your amp for a good amp sound it comes out of the PA a little funky unless its EQ'd well. I opt to run direct and voice my sound to a PA and have had good results. I've got setting on my processor for plugging into an amp and for running direct. I started using an amp this time around but changed back to running direct. I guess we will continue to disagree on this one. LOL
_________________
Don't bitch to me about the economy while you're still buying Chinese products. |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
|
| Posted: Thursday May 10, 2012 |
|
|
Oh, and I did stop in Ford music, not too many extreme discounts at this point and a little slim in decent equipment. The 2 things that caught my eye already had "SOLD" tags on em. There was a fair deal on a martin though.
_________________
Don't bitch to me about the economy while you're still buying Chinese products. |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
floodcitybrass
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Thursday May 10, 2012 |
|
|
It's too general a question to answer.
There are 3-way speakers that are better than 2-way speakers and vice versa.
For example, a 2-way Meyer UPA-1 will kick the snot off of any 3-way musician grade light weight carpeted speaker or molded. So my point is that you cannot simply say that all 3-way cabs are better than 2-way cabs.
What are you looking for? Why the change? What are you unhappy with? Do you need...
- more coverage?
- louder?
- better highs?
- better mids?
- better sound at the back of the room?
You will generally find that light weight and high quality is an oxymoron so you probably want to rule out anything eaw if you are looking for light. |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
|
| Posted: Friday May 11, 2012 |
|
|
| tonefight wrote: | | As far as the honk, honk, LOL. I think it comes down to some other factors. If you voice your amp for a good amp sound it comes out of the PA a little funky unless its EQ'd well. I opt to run direct and voice my sound to a PA and have had good results. I've got setting on my processor for plugging into an amp and for running direct. I started using an amp this time around but changed back to running direct. I guess we will continue to disagree on this one. LOL |
Nothing simulates a speaker better than a speaker.
_________________
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
LHSL
Gold Member
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Johnstown
|
| Posted: Friday May 11, 2012 |
|
|
| tonefight wrote: | Jeff, I have been finding lower SPL ratings on the 3 way cabs and actually some bizare dips in certain frequency ranges that I wouldn't expect. so yes it looks like lower volume per watt like you say and it also looks like you would need some heavy EQ work to even it out. These are the reasons I was asking the question. I may just want to look into better quality 2 way than what I'm currently using.
As far as the honk, honk, LOL. I think it comes down to some other factors. If you voice your amp for a good amp sound it comes out of the PA a little funky unless its EQ'd well. I opt to run direct and voice my sound to a PA and have had good results. I've got setting on my processor for plugging into an amp and for running direct. I started using an amp this time around but changed back to running direct. I guess we will continue to disagree on this one. LOL |
If a guitar (or any musical instrument) sounds different coming out of a PA cabinet, then the PA cabinet is not flat with respect to frequency or there is some sort of phase shift. No PA cabinet is 100% flat, in frequency or phase, but many are closer to flat than others. This definitely can cause a given PA cabinet to "color" the sound in some way that you may or may not like.
There are very very few 3 way cabinets that will be relatively flat if they aren't processed and tri-amped. It is very hard to design a cabinet and passive crossover that can properly align the drivers phase. And remember, making a cabinet flat in frequency with an equalizer will cause it to not be flat in phase.
For 2 way systems (compression driver on a horn + typical cone driver) the challenges are similar. But since you are asking more of each driver, you will get different issues too. First, the efficiency of a compression driver falls off at lower frequencies proportional to it's horn length. Additionally, the coverage of a cone driver narrows with increasing frequency.
Long story short, you have two choices with most 2 way systems. First if your crossover is very high, you will have poor off axis response from the cone driver. It will sound great in front of the speaker, but will sound like crap off axis. Second if your crossover is too low, the high (CD + horn) driver will not be able to produce the same SPL for the frequencies near and above the crossover (since efficiency is lower).
_________________
"Turn it down!"
"What?" |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
|
| Posted: Friday May 11, 2012 |
|
|
| LHSL wrote: | | If a guitar (or any musical instrument) sounds different coming out of a PA cabinet, then the PA cabinet is not flat with respect to frequency or there is some sort of phase shift. No PA cabinet is 100% flat, in frequency or phase, but many are closer to flat than others. This definitely can cause a given PA cabinet to "color" the sound in some way that you may or may not like. |
He plugs a processor directly into the PA, as opposed to playing thru a guitar amp and miking it. This is a completely different issue from sound reproduction. You will not find any guitar amp cabinets (exclude bass) with horns in them because horns just plain suck for guitar tone and tactile response. This is why you will see guitarists talking about getting Celestion V30s and other guitar speakers. Most guitar speakers have a natural non-linear high frequency rolloff around 5-6khz. Processors try to simulate this response of guitar speaker cabinets with a little parametric eq, but fall short trying to make one eq curve to fit all PA situations.
The result is a bristling, tinny radio sound that really sucks to most guitarists, not to mention lack of harmonic sustain. You can roll off the treble at the channel, but that only impairs the high tones.
In short: A PA is not a guitar cabinet and cannot easily be made to sound like one.
_________________
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
LHSL
Gold Member
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Johnstown
|
| Posted: Friday May 11, 2012 |
|
|
| lonewolf wrote: | He plugs a processor directly into the PA, as opposed to playing thru a guitar amp and miking it. This is a completely different issue from sound reproduction. You will not find any guitar amp cabinets (exclude bass) with horns in them because horns just plain suck for guitar tone and tactile response. This is why you will see guitarists talking about getting Celestion V30s and other guitar speakers. Most guitar speakers have a natural non-linear high frequency rolloff around 5-6khz. Processors try to simulate this response of guitar speaker cabinets with a little parametric eq, but fall short trying to make one eq curve to fit all PA situations.
The result is a bristling, tinny radio sound that really sucks to most guitarists, not to mention lack of harmonic sustain. You can roll off the treble at the channel, but that only impairs the high tones.
In short: A PA is not a guitar cabinet and cannot easily be made to sound like one. |
I thought what he was stating was that when he voices his guitar amp to sound good with guitar it sounds different (in a bad way) through a PA system. What I'm simply stating, is that the cause is likely a PA cabinet that isn't flat. If I misinterpreted what he meant, my bad.
As for processors that don't sound good directly through a PA... I've heard good ones. And bad ones. But, it can be done, and be done well.
_________________
"Turn it down!"
"What?" |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
|
| Posted: Saturday May 12, 2012 |
|
|
| LHSL wrote: | | As for processors that don't sound good directly through a PA... I've heard good ones. And bad ones. But, it can be done, and be done well. |
I'd be interested to know what models?
I heard (and have or had) a few that don't sound bad thru a PA, but they don't have the tactile response that you get from guitar cabinets.
_________________
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
|
| Posted: Saturday May 12, 2012 |
|
|
OK, way off topic gentlemen. My guitar is just fine the way I run it and not relevant to this conversation.
Simply looking to upgrade speakers and wondering opinions on 3 way cabs as opposed to just a 2 way.
_________________
Don't bitch to me about the economy while you're still buying Chinese products. |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
lonewolf
Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 6249
Location: Anywhere, Earth
|
| Posted: Saturday May 12, 2012 |
|
|
| tonefight wrote: | OK, way off topic gentlemen. My guitar is just fine the way I run it and not relevant to this conversation.
Simply looking to upgrade speakers and wondering opinions on 3 way cabs as opposed to just a 2 way. |
If the sound of your guitar is not a factor in your plans for a PA, then there's probably no sense in getting new speakers just for the sake of going from 2-way to 3-way.
If you want to improve sound, i would suggest going to a small setup with 15-18" subs and 10-12"/horn tops. You could add subs to your existing speakers too.
I have a pair of EV 18" subs and the power amp to drive them for sale that would do the trick in spades for under $1000. The stuff is mint. The same cabs you used in Hastings, but I think I added the new 18" speakers after that.
_________________
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
tonefight
Diamond Member
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 1409
Location: Ebensburg
|
| Posted: Sunday May 13, 2012 |
|
|
| lonewolf wrote: | | I have a pair of EV 18" subs and the power amp to drive them for sale that would do the trick in spades for under $1000. The stuff is mint. The same cabs you used in Hastings, but I think I added the new 18" speakers after that. |
Well thats actually not a bad idea, I'll send ya a PM
_________________
Don't bitch to me about the economy while you're still buying Chinese products. |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
floodcitybrass
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Tuesday May 15, 2012 |
|
|
| tonefight wrote: | My guitar is just fine the way I run it and not relevant to this conversation.
Simply looking to upgrade speakers and wondering opinions on 3 way cabs as opposed to just a 2 way. |
So can you any background on what you are looking for?
What are you looking for? Why the change? What are you unhappy with? Do you need...
- more coverage?
- louder?
- better highs?
- better mids?
- better sound at the back of the room? |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
Ron
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2031
Location: State College, PA
|
| Posted: Saturday Jul 07, 2012 |
|
|
| lonewolf wrote: | | tonefight wrote: | OK, way off topic gentlemen. My guitar is just fine the way I run it and not relevant to this conversation.
Simply looking to upgrade speakers and wondering opinions on 3 way cabs as opposed to just a 2 way. |
If the sound of your guitar is not a factor in your plans for a PA, then there's probably no sense in getting new speakers just for the sake of going from 2-way to 3-way.
If you want to improve sound, i would suggest going to a small setup with 15-18" subs and 10-12"/horn tops. You could add subs to your existing speakers too.
I have a pair of EV 18" subs and the power amp to drive them for sale that would do the trick in spades for under $1000. The stuff is mint. The same cabs you used in Hastings, but I think I added the new 18" speakers after that. |
If you were able to get a good sound out of 15" 2-way cabs, this will be a vast improvement. 2-way 15" cabs are terrible designs no matter how you look at it. Those that sound good are expensive because they need to get the horn's cutoff low enough and still maintain power handling. The upper-mid frequency response of any 15" speaker is going to be awful, and it's all the physics of the large cone diameter.
Guitar and especially vocals will sound much better with 12's. Getting the sub frequencies off of the "sticks" and onto the floor will also make a big improvement with bass coupling and lower midrange response.
_________________
... and then the wheel fell off. |
|
| Back to top » |
|
|
|
