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Little Devil Girl Gold Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 114
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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There are 2 bars in Johnstown that are non smoking and believe it or not, both places are packed on the weekends....on a regular basis. The one bar has bands and dj's and the other is just a small bar that people go to watch the games at and such. I smoke myself and it was hard not to light up while enjoying a beer, but instead of smoking a pack in one night out, I only smoked about 7 cigs....nice the next day.
Would you ride in the car with your windows up and smoke around your baby??? I guess that since you may not know all the people in the bar it really doesn't matter that your smoke is hurting them.....
Just food for thought.... _________________ If you have an EGO, go look in the mirror, then you will realize you shouldn't. |
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lonewolf Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 6249 Location: Anywhere, Earth
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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rreihart wrote: | lonewolf wrote: |
Deep fried food and soda pop will be next. |
No, not really. So long as the consumption of said products affects only you. The point is, smoking affects EVERYONE around you. |
Oh yes really:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/us/18soda.html
Give them time, it will evolve. 20 years ago, the thought of a cigarette ban was a laughable joke. _________________ ...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
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Team Transylvania Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 949 Location: Martinsburg Castle...hidden away in a dungeon.
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Bag Diamond Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2004 Posts: 1485
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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The bowling alley that I used to manage went smoke free about 10 years ago. Some of the league bowlers swore that they would quit. Some did. As a smoker myself, I thought it was ridiculous, as they could go outside whenever they want and have a cig. I on the other hand, was stuck inside for 10 hours. I HATED it at first, but had to admit that clean-up was alot easier at the end of the day, not having ashes all over everything and burns in the carpeting. And I probably went from 2 packs a day down to 1. That being said, business DECREASED drastically, especially on the weekends when there was "open" bowling. The younger crowd just doesn't come there anymore. We used to have waiting lists EVERY Friday and Saturday night, but rarely ever have one now. I honestly still think that the smoking ban has alot to do with it. But the owner always wanted a more "family" type atmosphere, so he doesn't seem to mind.
As far as a bar, I'd still go see bands and probably smoke alot less. But it would be a huge P.I.T.A. to go outside every time I wanted a smoke. I'm sure the doorman will not be happy either.
I think it should be up to the OWNERS of the clubs/business' what they want to do with THEIR establishments. NOT "big brother." _________________ You don't shoot a man in the dick! |
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mjb Diamond Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2006 Posts: 1506
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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i wish smokes were banned, so i could start bootleggin them! |
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Colton Diamond Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Posts: 1977 Location: Almost level with the ground.
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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Does this effect private clubs? We may see some bars changing if private clubs arent forced to be non-smoking. _________________ Laugh if you want to, really is kinda funny, 'cause the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy. |
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lonewolf Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 6249 Location: Anywhere, Earth
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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Colton wrote: | Does this effect private clubs? We may see some bars changing if private clubs arent forced to be non-smoking. |
Since the only legal rationale for a smoking ban is protection of the employees, the only laws that would stand up to appeal are those that would ban smoking in places that hire employees. So yes, that includes members-only clubs. _________________ ...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
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MeYatch Diamond Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 1586
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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what if you could create some kind of thing where everyone that worked there were actually part owners, and agreed to allow smoking? just curious _________________ Stand back, I like to rock out. |
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lonewolf Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 6249 Location: Anywhere, Earth
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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MeYatch wrote: | what if you could create some kind of thing where everyone that worked there were actually part owners, and agreed to allow smoking? just curious |
To find out, you would have to get your asses busted, get a lawyer and appeal it thru the legal system until a court either finds the law unconstitutional or finds the no-employee business arrangement to be exempt or not.
Since the smoking ban bandwagon was started by the left-wing health fascists movement, I doubt if the ACLU would take the case.
If they are going to push this, I would like to see a compromise that would allow limited numbers of establishments to buy smoking licenses just like they have different types of licenses from the PLCB. _________________ ...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
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RobTheDrummer Diamond Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 5228 Location: Tiptonia, Pa
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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undercoverjoe wrote: | Where are you all going to play when the do-gooders decide to ban alcohol? After all, 10's of thousands die each year form drunk drivers.
Fatty foods, sugar loaded soft drinks will soon follow.
Does anyone remember FREEDOM?
(and no one is holding a gun to your head to play in a smoky bar) |
People choose to drink, we're not saying you can't smoke just do it outside. What about the people that want to go out, but don't enjoy breathing YOUR smoke? _________________ www.youtube.com/robthedrummer |
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Hawk Diamond Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2004 Posts: 5332 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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I've been thinking about this becasuse I'm really on the fence (as to whether it's right or wrong )and many of you have good points for both sides of the issue.
If a place is open to the public (even if it is privately owned) no one should have the right to poison me. You will argue, "don't go to that bar then". But if I want to see your band, and you only play in smoking bars, I have no choice (If I want to see you badly enough) but to go in and be poisoned. Which is what I do now.
I've been to NYC smoke free bars, and it was great. I loved it.
If a place is a private , members only club, I could see them being allowed to smoke. As the membership should be able to decide for themselves. _________________ www.showtimesoundllc.com
Flashpoint!
SKYE 2.0
Triple Threat |
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ToonaRockGuy Diamond Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 Posts: 3091 Location: Altoona, behind a drumset.
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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Normally, ucjoe and I don't see eye to eye on too much. But he hit the nail on the head...
There is no law that says someone can't open a non-smoking bar, or change their bar to non-smoking.
Yes, I'm a smoker. Yes, I know it's bad for me and bad for others. I do try to be polite about it, and respect non-smokers. Hell, when I go out to eat, I ask for the non-smoking section. But this (to me) is the government going where they shouldn't. There are bigger fish to fry, like the war in Iraq, the National Debt, Social Security, Healthcare, etc. What's next on the ban list? I mean really, everything is bad for you.
I've no problem if someone wants to change their place to non-smoking, or opens a non-smoking place. But ucjoe is right, Big Brother is on the way with this one. _________________ Dood... |
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UNEARTHA7XMatt Platinum Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2005 Posts: 834 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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We recently played at Peabody's in Cleveland Ohio and it is also Smoke free. You had to walk outside to smoke a cigarette! Not to mention it was FREEZING. _________________ We got all highed Up and somebody put the car in the Pool! |
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lonewolf Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 6249 Location: Anywhere, Earth
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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Hawk wrote: | If a place is a private , members only club, I could see them being allowed to smoke. As the membership should be able to decide for themselves. |
That can't happen legally. There is one and only one legal rationale for a smoking ban in privately owned places. That is for the protection of employees, period, end of legal story. This means that any smoking ban must apply to any place that hires employees to work in the affected area.
Forget any heartfelt arguments about smokers or non-smokers rights in a privately owned bar. It has no basis in legal reality. The only right any patron has in a privately owned bar is the right to leave. Lawmakers know this and have not been foolish enough to compose a smoking ban based on this rationale because they know it will not stand up in a higher court.
I wonder what coal miners think of this? _________________ ...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
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HarleyRo1 Gold Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 Posts: 439 Location: Hanging out with the Great Cornholio
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Posted: Sunday Jan 06, 2008 |
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I can't wait to go out for a night...see some great bands...go home after a fun night and lay my head down on my pillow at 2:30 am and not have the stench of cigarette smoke rolling off my hair and onto my pillow. _________________ Who needs gold and diamonds when you can have chrome.... |
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DrumAndDestroy Diamond Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 Posts: 2373 Location: Altoona
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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UNEARTHA7XMatt wrote: | We recently played at Peabody's in Cleveland Ohio and it is also Smoke free. You had to walk outside to smoke a cigarette! Not to mention it was FREEZING. |
Yeah...but that's one fun venue to play anyway!! |
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DrumAndDestroy Diamond Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 Posts: 2373 Location: Altoona
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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i don't smoke ciggs. but i don't care who does or doesn't at a bar. i think the ban is stupid.
maybe we should ban fireworks at lakemont park..afterall, smoke fills my neighborhood for hours after the fourth of july and curve games.
this poses more of a threat to live music than guitar hero. priorities people....priorities!! |
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Hawk Diamond Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2004 Posts: 5332 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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lonewolf wrote: | Hawk wrote: | If a place is a private , members only club, I could see them being allowed to smoke. As the membership should be able to decide for themselves. |
That can't happen legally. There is one and only one legal rationale for a smoking ban in privately owned places. That is for the protection of employees, period, end of legal story. This means that any smoking ban must apply to any place that hires employees to work in the affected area.
Forget any heartfelt arguments about smokers or non-smokers rights in a privately owned bar. It has no basis in legal reality. The only right any patron has in a privately owned bar is the right to leave. Lawmakers know this and have not been foolish enough to compose a smoking ban based on this rationale because they know it will not stand up in a higher court.
I wonder what coal miners think of this? |
I would guess in some private clubs, VFWs, the Bavarian Hall, It's likely the employees are members. _________________ www.showtimesoundllc.com
Flashpoint!
SKYE 2.0
Triple Threat |
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Klamachpin Gold Member
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 141 Location: Johnstown, PA
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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I don't mind going outside to smoke, actually. But I should have the right to do it inside. Especially if the place is serving alcohol. After all, alcohol & cigarettes go together like french fries & ketchup. Duh! So why isn't alcohol illegal? Maybe because it makes so much money or the good 'ole boys of politics enjoy a drink or ten before they wanna get fucked, who knows? But drinking several alcoholic drinks is most likely not recommended by the "surgeon general" & we all know how "he" feels about smoking so I say if an establishment serves alcohol, smoking should be permitted as well. And all non-smokers just have to deal with it. But I know the ban coming. I'm not stupid, just addicted. _________________ I gave you my heart. Whatever God gave me.
You took to the grave, now it's gone - Tom Evans. |
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lonewolf Diamond Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 6249 Location: Anywhere, Earth
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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Hawk wrote: | I would guess in some private clubs, VFWs, the Bavarian Hall, It's likely the employees are members. |
That's probably true, but membership would be irrelevant to a smoking ban. They all hire employees and would have to be covered under the same criteria. Its called equal protection under the law.
And to answer your next point:
No, the government will not permit volunteer labor when money is continually changing hands for the continuation of business, not even at a members-only club. _________________ ...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time... |
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songsmith Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002 Posts: 6108 Location: The Wood of Bells
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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A smoking ban would likely help my situation more than hinder it. Because of the type of music I play, the audience skews older. At bars, we get more hippy-types, 21 to 30-ish. But at outdoor shows, which are almost always well-attended and all-age, we see more rural types, families, and lots more 40 and over people. I think with a smoking ban, we'd draw more 40-and-overs, but that might not be a great thing for, say, a modern rock or metal band. It's different audiences, so I can see where it might hurt the rock guys. Any evidence I have as to whether a ban works, is anecdotal at best, my wife works with someone who turned his bar into a smoke-free bar because he was diagnosed with COPD, and lived upstairs over the barroom. When he made the switch, his food sales shot through the roof, and now he sells more alcohol because the people stay longer. I must admit, though this place is relatively near here, he doesn't do entertainment, so he couldn't really speak to how it would affect bands. My thought is that more mainstream, family friendly music would do okay with a smoking ban (not necessarily a good thing, we need some rebellion).--------->JMS |
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bassist_25 Senior Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002 Posts: 6815 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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undercoverjoe wrote: | You have the freedom to open a smoke free bar, and all of those who like to go out and not smoke will make you a fortune. But you and your patrons are doing this on their own, but when big brother government gets involved, just watch out what they will ban next. |
Bingo
DrumAndDestroy wrote: | this poses more of a threat to live music than guitar hero. priorities people....priorities!! |
Bingo
I don't think that this would be the proverbial "nail in the coffin" of the local scene, but on top of LCB harrasement, .08 DUI laws, kareoke, and the myriad of other bullshit we have to deal with, it's part of the gestalt that's going to make things even more difficult. My ego's not so big that I think people are going to sit there for four hours straight, having a nic fit to watch me play, regardless of how much they dig my band. As Bag pointed out, I can just see the clusterfuck that's going to happen once a band goes on set break. Do you really think it's a good thing having fifty drunk people standing out in a parking lot? My guess is that Pennsylvania's mindless sheeple mentally ("ooh, other states have a smoking ban, so we need one too") is just going to create more headaches for local police. _________________ "He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film. |
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mikers85 Active Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2004 Posts: 34 Location: pa
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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"- Breathing secondhand smoke for even a short time can have immediate adverse effects on the cardiovascular system and interferes with the normal functioning of the heart, blood, and vascular systems in ways that increase the risk of a heart attack.
- Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or at work increase their risk of developing heart disease by 25 - 30 percent.
- Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or at work increase their risk of developing lung cancer by 20 - 30 percent."
- source: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov
Keep in mind that lung cancer will kill more people this year than:
* breast cancer
* prostate cancer
* colon cancer
* liver cancer
* kidney cancer
* melanoma
...combined
-source: http://www.lungcanceralliance.org/facing/facts.html
Also keep in mind that heart disease is the leading cause of death for both women and men in the United States
-source: http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm
Here is an article for those who think this is about the annoyance of smoke: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/46133.php
To those asking well if you go this far why not alcohol too or next?
Drinking alcohol doesn't substantially affect the life expectancy of those around you unless you do it irresponsibly (drunken driving and so on) which is illegal. Also this isn't to make smoking illegal, it is to make it illegal in public places in which it affects those around you.
The ban isn't about stopping you from doing something thats bad for you, its about stopping you from doing something that is substantially bad for those around you.
Also, leaving the immediate area of the smoker in a building or moving to a nonsmoking section is not enough to eliminate the risk and effects.
No one holds a gun to nonsmokers heads and forces them to go to places where people smoke, but nonsmokers shouldn't be forced to suffer the horrible effects of second hand smoke if they choose to work or play music in an average bar. I think most arguments focusing on the annoyance of the smell distract from the real issue which is the health effects, because the smell on clothes and equipment is trivial in comparison. Should million of people be exposed to horrible poisons proven to kill you even when they are only passively inhaled in small amounts so that other people can have their "right" to smoke in public places? Or is this one right people can do without, for the good of others?
As far as the bar scene goes, I hope it does not hurt it but I think its right to do it regardless. Lead paint recalls may hurt holiday toy sales but some things like health are just more important. _________________ www.thesyrins.com |
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Hawk Diamond Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2004 Posts: 5332 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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"Freedom taken away." This phrase has been used in this thread.
I'd like my freedom too. Free to breath non poisonous air in public.
If you are loosing a freedom, others are gaining one.
Big Brother has been mentioned as well. Big Brother is a general reference to the Federal Government. This is not a ban coming from Big Brother. Some of you wanted the power to be with the State Government. That's what this is. The State doing it's job.
A couple of you seem to be against the government doing anything. Even if it is for the common good of the general public. I think this IS for the good of the general public. _________________ www.showtimesoundllc.com
Flashpoint!
SKYE 2.0
Triple Threat |
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ZappasXWife Senior Member
Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 1035 Location: Altoona
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Posted: Monday Jan 07, 2008 |
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I, too, am 'on the fence' because I do see this as more government interference, but I realize it can affect the health of others. Great post btw mikers85.
I do see this ban hurting the bar scene in Altoona, and no you can't compare State College, lots of people up here are used to things like this (coming from many other places) and it seems to me that there are not as many smokers up here. I see this ban hurting an already struggling scene. Must admit it would be nice to not smell like smoke after going out and the smoking hangover someone brought up was interesting...I have always suspected there was such a thing; I have worse hangovers from bar drinking compared to other drinking situations.
Some comments:
Quote: | Since the only legal rationale for a smoking ban is protection of the employees, the only laws that would stand up to appeal are those that would ban smoking in places that hire employees. So yes, that includes members-only clubs. |
I may be wrong about this, but I would suspect that people employed by private clubs around central PA are paid under the table and are thus not considered 'real' employees. And the thing about a tax on soda because high-fructose corn syrup causes obesity is the most ridiculously generalizing thing I ever read! Thats like saying lets tax automobiles some more because car accidents kill people. _________________ If music be the food of love, then play on...
William Shakespeare |
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