[songsmith]

Okay, here's a question:
Why is it okay to be militantly gay? If I'm not supposed to define someone by their sexuality, then why is it expected for gay people to define themselves by their sexuality. And why can't I, as a heterosexual man, therefore, be militantly hetero?
I believe that being gay, or black, or being persecuted for any reason entitles a person to... nothing. If you feel you need your pound of flesh because people are tough on you, then you need to get your face out of the mirror, drop the narcissism, and notice that everybody has their own row to hoe, and we all get sh*t from other people. If you aren't ridiculed for being gay, you get it for being fat, or poor, or dumb, or rural, or clumsy, or unlucky, or whatever else people can use to help themselves feel superior to you. It's human nature and it's biological to "discriminate" because if you're not a predator in nature, you're prey. Does this mean I view gays as lower on the ladder than myself? Um, no, because I'm as big a loser as the next schmuck, so I actually identify with gay men on that front. I'm not athletic, or tough, or even aggressive, and to lots of alpha males, that's the same as gay. But do I think the world owes me a nicer seat on the bus. No. If I deserve something, it's because I earned it.
Which brings me to my point: Don't I even owe gay people my respect? Nope. I don't owe anyone my respect. I owe you the chance to earn my respect, same as you owe me. I don't have a need to hand out validation of gay lifestyle, and really, that's what everybody wants, validation. From my vantage point, it seems that gay culture wants the rest of us to celebrate their gayness, and reward it. I say nobody should be rewarded for being gay or black or anything else. That's true equality... when you're as miserable as I am. True equality would mean the Queer Eye guys would be derided for insulting how straight men dress and live, and pointing out that being gay is somehow better. True equality would notice that, while ten percent of us are gay, ninety percent are not. True equality would pull it's own face from the mirror long enough to look around and notice that roughly the same percentage of gay men and straight men are successful at what they do, and "breeders" are less of a factor for gay men than a culture of self-defeatism and eternal victim syndrome.
As an aside, I find the "born gay" argument interesting, but I don't believe it. On the other hand, perhaps I can now tell people I was born dorky and weird, and they will suddenly forgive me for it.
Now on to more important issues about gayness. I, for one, am appalled that gay men generally can get excellent beans anytime. The Pink Mafia apparently intercepts all the quality beans coming from Canada, prowling the antique shops and wineries in Subaru Forresters, running Ford F-450's off the road and taking all the good Hydro, and leaving us un-high and dry, and relegating us to brown schwag-beans from Mexico. Really. I never met a gay dude who couldn't get good beans. Put that in your stereotype pipe and smoke it. ------->JMS

[VENTGtr]

S.S.,

"Why is it okay to be militantly gay?"

Actually, I don't think I saw anyone on here who was. I saw someone being,
understandably, annoyed that a few saw them as an abomination of humanity
based on a book, or misguided views on what they are, or both.

"And why can't I, as a heterosexual man, therefore, be militantly hetero?"

Well, by virtue of the fact that there's a belief that limiting the rights 2 people
have to decide with whom they want to spend their life, or define how they
do so, you kind of are.

"But do I think the world owes me a nicer seat on the bus."

See, this is the problem. The majority of gay people aren't asking for a "nicer
seat" they're saying they want to same right to a seat that others get.

"I'm not athletic, or tough, or even aggressive, and to lots of alpha males,
that's the same as gay."

Well,...I'm pretty good as sports, have a wife-to-be and an awesome kid, think
people who are "aggressive" have some serious pent up anger issues (I'm
related to some who fit this to a TEE), and have gay friends. I wouldn't think
you're gay. You very well may be, I dunno.

I think those "alpha males" you mentioned....may just be gayer than they'd
like to think. Okay, maybe not all of them, but I hear a lot of these guys say
things and know of them doing things that make one think it's true sometimes.
However, if that's their definition of "gay", they are ignorant.

"True equality would pull it's own face from the mirror long enough to look
around and notice that roughly the same percentage of gay men and straight
men are successful at what they do,..."

When they're given the opportunity, I have no doubt that's true. BUT, I also
have no doubt there are people who won't hire someone because of their race,
orientation, religion, etc. I think you're general point shows that someone
being gay makes them equal to someone who isn't.

Do I think there are people out there who act like they're entitled to something
more? Yep. But I'll bet the "average" gay person would say that person is as
much of an idiot as you would.

"As an aside, I find the "born gay" argument interesting, but I don't believe it."

Not sure how many years of research you put into it, but those who have
REALLY done some have a different view....and that research and knowledge
to prove it.

Will I say there aren't people who's lives have made them "choose" to be gay?
No, I wouldn't say that. I think that number is extremely rare though. I'd be
more sure that the number of gay people who live their lives being "straight"
is pretty huge though.

I DO think an easy answer would be to have everyone go through a civil
ceremony, then they decide if they want to have a"marriage" (Churches can
decide on how/who they want to "marry". That's their rules and if
someone wants to be a part of it, they have to follow it. Religious conviction
by convenience is just funny: "God said gay is bad" but...
"Ya, I'm drunk. I think God's okay with it sometimes").

People can refer to themselves however they want. Not my business, nor is
who they leave their belongings when they die, who they decide can pull the
life plug if they're in an accident, etc. I know when we get married, I want to
have my friend from Ottawa come down here (Or mebbe we go there) perform
it...dressed as Elvis. It's my ONE demand!

"Really. I never met a gay dude who couldn't get good beans."

See, if you REALLY loved your beans, you'd be on a float in a Florida Keys
Pride Parade. You're not doing so is giving fuel to those that would call you
a Bean Poseur".

I'm not saying who might have said something like that....just that such a
rumour might be out there.
_________________
DaveP.

"You must be this beautiful to ride the Quagmire."

[songsmith]

Good points, but most of them operate on the supposition that everybody wants to just be equal. That's patently untrue. Each of us knows how hard we've worked, how much dues we've paid, what we've sacrificed to get something. We know ONLY that, really, so it follows that we don't feel equal... we feel better than the other guy. If I'm gay, and the other guy got the job, it couldn't have been because he's the better man for the job, it's because I'm gay. There, now I don't have to admit my shortcomings. I'm sorry. Being gay is no more difficult than being straight. Life's a bitch. I pay dearly for the choices I make, good or bad. I have weaknesses I must address. Not everybody likes me. I've written a zillion awesome songs nobody will ever hear, and when they hear, they don't always like it.
Shall I proselytize about how haaaaarrrd it is to be a straight white guy? Is that what we do? Look at how our society views US. Somehow, it's assumed that I am personally responsible for everything bad. Just being white makes me inherently racist. Just being heterosexual makes me a gay-basher. Just being a man makes me too aggressive and powerful. It's all over the media... I am responsible for wars, politics, crime, prejudice, greed, etc. Now let's look at the world from my window: I keep my head down, do the work I do the best I can, and try not to complain. I put my wife on a pedestal, and wish I had a kid to carry on after I'm gone. I do what the boss tells me to, and I try to do things I can be proud of. I largely keep my opinion of people to myself, because my opinion plus a buck buys a cup of coffee. In return, I get to be the world's villain. Go on and on ad infinitum about how difficult being gay is, and I'll answer in kind on every single issue. True equality would mean that, between gay people and straight people, nobody would win the argument. Gay people wouldn't allow that to happen, would they? So why should straight people? Is it because we're inherently wrong? (That's rhetorical. If anyone answers, "yes," it would instantly prove my point.)

Oh, yeah, re: gay marriage... Love who you want. Screw who you want, it's never been about that for me. Call it what you want. Get healthcare and tax breaks, hey more power to ya. Expect me to give it the same credence and weight as my own marriage?... Hell, I don't even do that with other straight marriages. Completely remove my view from the table? How is that progress? That's the same tactic used by the so-called moral majority. Is that where gay people want to take it? Far left or far right, it's all closed-minded bullsh*t to me.

Before you get too angry at me, Dave, thanks for the discussion. I love real dialogue.---------->JMS

[VENTGtr]

SS,

"Before you get too angry at me, Dave, thanks for the discussion. I love real dialogue."

No man, not all. There's no anger, believe me. I too like the dialogue, and think
any of these discussions are, generally, really healthy.

I agree that no one WANTS to be equal, per se. Every guy/woman in every band on
here wants to be the best they can and wants to feel like their band is better than
everyone else's.

Now, band and music-wise, that's possible to an extent. But, as human beings, as
an animal, there's nothing inherent in any of our "groups", for lack of a better word,
that makes any of us better than anyone else.

"If I'm gay, and the other guy got the job, it couldn't have been because he's the
better man for the job, it's because I'm gay."

But see, that's thinking that everyone who's gay who's not gotten a particular job
feels that way. I don't think you think that's the case.

"Shall I proselytize about how haaaaarrrd it is to be a straight white guy?"

Is this about the beans again?

"Just being white makes me inherently racist. Just being heterosexual makes me a
gay-basher. Just being a man makes me too aggressive and powerful."

You're right that there are people who feel that way. I've known some and had
people think that about me before having any idea of what I was about. BUT, they're
also wrong in making that stereotype. Which is just more proof that all stripes have
those that have misguided ideas. The idea, and ideal, should be to get past there
being different stripes. Quixotic? Mebbe. But so is practicing every day of your life
to play Segovia under the table. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try even if it's not totally
possible. Actually, changing a mindset can be way easier.

"True equality would mean that, between gay people and straight people, nobody
would win the argument."

Ideally, it would mean that there is no argument. But, when there are some SERIOUS
hating people out there, like the Baptist church from Kansas going to celebrate the
bridge crashing in MN as "God's will" because Minnesotans "tolerate" homosexuals,
you have to understand where their concern is.

As long as they're not allowed to have the same basic rights as those of us that are
straight, they have every right, if not responsibility to keep the discussion going.

"Is it because we're inherently wrong?"

That's presuming that everyone straight is part os the "us".

I don't think most people who are against gay marriage are necessarily bad people
(Certainly no more than anyone else). I've known a lot who've had an issue with the
idea of it, then when they actually got know someone who is, did a total 180 and saw
"them" just as people. Faults, plusses, etc. the same as everyone else.

Now this. Every have those little EasyMac macaroni and cheese things? Take one
of those, heat it up, and stir in one those little cheese snack stick things with the
cheese packet. Lord. Just had one with a really late lunch. Exxcceelllent.

Later on SS,
DaveP.
_________________
DaveP.

"You must be this beautiful to ride the Quagmire."

[bassist_25]

[VENTGtr]

[songsmith]

[Team Transylvania]

Only ONE member who is actually GAY here voiced their opinions?
Where's the rest of you??? Dont be shy.

My uncle is GAY. Always has been. Yay for him. I still dont agree with it.

Gays are notorious for being very deviant and having unprotected sex. If you dont agree, youre lying to yourself. Go to Adult World in duncansville once. Its a Deviant Gay Man meeting ground. Guys go there to hook up with other guys for 5 mins all the time! That place is a disease with doors.
If you doubt that, just go in there and hang out for a few hours, im sure youll get propositioned atleast once by some deviant dirty old gay dude.
if you want more examples, ill be happy to provide them.
(brown fingerprints on the booth walls .....yeah.. YUCK!!!!)

I really dont have a problem with gay people. What i have a problem with is gay people whining all the time about wanting to get married.
By DEFINITION, its between a MAN AND WOMAN!!!!
Quit whining. Be gay, be proud. Just do your own thing and stop trying to get everything the next guy has. If you wanna have the traditional marriage, GET A WOMAN!!!
You shouldnt need a piece of paper to validate your relationship with your male lover. Youre looking for approval from other people, when on the sane hand, you say you dont need it. Pick one and stick to it.
I would like to hear what other gay RP members have to say. Even you 'higher up' ones.

[Punkinhead]

I always thought, until I met my wife, that tags such as marriage, even boyfriend/girlfriend were nothing more than a way to label something and make something/someone into a possession. I understand now that that view was completely wrong for many, many reasons.

I do think that everyone should be able to fully commit to someone if they want to regardless of their sexual preference. Love is love and to deny someone the ability to completely and fully commit to someone they have those types of feelings for is fucking stupid. It just is. No longer are we talking about opinions on right and wrong. Laws that deny some humans happiness but, allow it for others are nothing if not wrong.
_________________
If youth knew; if age could.

[AnimalInstinct625]

[Colton]

[AnimalInstinct625]

My point was simply...how can you be so strongly opposed to something that doesn't affect you? I didn't mean it literally.

Slavery was also a traditional institution at one point. The bible condoned that type of behavior too.

Not something I fully believe God intended.
_________________
You bring out the lemming in me.

[Colton]

I don't have an opinion on this really either way. I don't even know anyone who's gay.

"If gays want to get married and be miserable like the rest of us, I say go ahead and let'm" - Peter Griffin
_________________
Laugh if you want to, really is kinda funny, 'cause the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

[metalchurch]

If you guys are going to SanFrancisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair.

[AnimalInstinct625]

...interesting.
_________________
You bring out the lemming in me.

[slackin@dabass]

whatever. as so and so said before, the fact that our government with a seperation between church and state recognizes marriage wich is a religous tradition, then what the fuck sense does that make?

as for people that say that being gay is wrong because the bible says it is remember, the bible also says that to have long hair is a sin unto yourself, you can stone your kids to death (and not the good kinda stoned) for dis-obeying you, and if you work on the sabbath, it's a one way ticket to hell. so. if any of you religious bible thumping pricks would like to use the bible (wich was written thousands of years ago by alot of different people) to denote how people today should live their lives, then i have only one suggestion.

use grimm's fairy tales. it's newer and probably about as truthful, and i think more of the situations relate to today.

oh yea. 2 dudes wanna get hitched? whatever. i don't give a shit. it's the pride parade that pisses me off. if you wanna suck a dick, that's your business, you don't have to walk down the street and yell it at the top of your lungs. if i organized a straight pride parade i'm pretty sure that people would be pissed

[seven_star_customz]

what diffrence does it make>? I dont neccisarily agree with it. but im not gay either. I could care less.