Anyone using these?
If so, could you let me know the type of music, the situation you are using them, and your evaluation of them?
Im getting with a band tonight and they have the set as a rehearsal and gigging kit.
Doing a bunch of Steely Dan, Yes, Stevie Wonder and some other prog, funk sort of stuff. I cant imagine these things are going to have the dynamics I am use to with my "real" kit. I work the hi hat a lot. Im also not a fan of e-drums in general. Nice for effects or integrated into a real kit.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
PS.....sorry if this isnt the right forum. If its more appropriate in the tech sector, then please move.
Any drummers played or using the Roland TD 20S V-Pro?
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nightcrawler_steve
Okay, okay, I'll stay on topic.
I'll preface my comments with the obvious fact that I'm not a drummer, so your mileage may vary. I just work in a music store, so I'm around e-drums, and I try to have some product knowledge.
I have to say that e-drums are getting more popular all the time, as tech gets better and sets get cheaper. We seem to sell to 2 distinct groups: Churches (acoustic drums sound AWESOME in a big church with lots of reflective surfaces, but they're always too loud for old people, and churches tend to skew towards old people)... praise bands are VERY common now, and they need drums for a contemporary sound; and parents of teenage boys, for the obvious reason. That's not to say rock and other types of bands don't benefit, that's just who buys from the store where I work.
As a non-drummer, I sort of look at e-drums from a problem-solving point of view rather than an artistic perspective. They really have a lot of pluses as an instrument that take up less space, project zero inherent stage volume, never need tuned, and have the voice capabilities of dozens of sets in one package. They also have triggering hassles, need power to operate, feel different, and monitoring requires it's own gear. It's give-and-take.
As for the Rolands, I've heard nothing but praise. I think they're supposed to be the most natural-feeling, and they sound great. We sell Yamaha's, and they're less expensive, and sound great as well, though they have rubber pads. The Yammy's have some really whiz-bang features for rehearsal and jamming along, too, they're very addictive to play... we had to institute a 5-minute tryout time limit, because folks would play on them all day if we let them (salesmen, too!).
I came up when e-drums were in their infancy... everything had that Simmons synth-drum feel to it, and they were unuseable for anything but disco. Also, most bar-band drummers would never consent to wearing big headphones, so you had to have a lot of drum monitor to run it through. Now, technology has caught up, e-drums have banks of great-sounding voices, and in-ears really help the cause. I'm a very traditional guy, music-wise, but I wouldn't have a problem with an e-kit, I don't think. As a live-audio engineer, I'd be thrilled, it's waaaay less work and time invested.
In the right situation, e-drums are a great tool for the job at hand, and to me, that's what it's all about.----->JMS
I'll preface my comments with the obvious fact that I'm not a drummer, so your mileage may vary. I just work in a music store, so I'm around e-drums, and I try to have some product knowledge.
I have to say that e-drums are getting more popular all the time, as tech gets better and sets get cheaper. We seem to sell to 2 distinct groups: Churches (acoustic drums sound AWESOME in a big church with lots of reflective surfaces, but they're always too loud for old people, and churches tend to skew towards old people)... praise bands are VERY common now, and they need drums for a contemporary sound; and parents of teenage boys, for the obvious reason. That's not to say rock and other types of bands don't benefit, that's just who buys from the store where I work.
As a non-drummer, I sort of look at e-drums from a problem-solving point of view rather than an artistic perspective. They really have a lot of pluses as an instrument that take up less space, project zero inherent stage volume, never need tuned, and have the voice capabilities of dozens of sets in one package. They also have triggering hassles, need power to operate, feel different, and monitoring requires it's own gear. It's give-and-take.
As for the Rolands, I've heard nothing but praise. I think they're supposed to be the most natural-feeling, and they sound great. We sell Yamaha's, and they're less expensive, and sound great as well, though they have rubber pads. The Yammy's have some really whiz-bang features for rehearsal and jamming along, too, they're very addictive to play... we had to institute a 5-minute tryout time limit, because folks would play on them all day if we let them (salesmen, too!).
I came up when e-drums were in their infancy... everything had that Simmons synth-drum feel to it, and they were unuseable for anything but disco. Also, most bar-band drummers would never consent to wearing big headphones, so you had to have a lot of drum monitor to run it through. Now, technology has caught up, e-drums have banks of great-sounding voices, and in-ears really help the cause. I'm a very traditional guy, music-wise, but I wouldn't have a problem with an e-kit, I don't think. As a live-audio engineer, I'd be thrilled, it's waaaay less work and time invested.
In the right situation, e-drums are a great tool for the job at hand, and to me, that's what it's all about.----->JMS
The one bad thing about mixing an electronic kit vs. an acoustic kit is if the drummer is changing patches and doesn't have them set to the same volume level.
I remember seeing an EV Pro 18B turn inside out when a patch was changed on an electronic kick drum and the new setting was about 20dB louder than the previous one. Ooops. Make sure you have a limiter.
They are great for cleaning up stage volume.
I remember seeing an EV Pro 18B turn inside out when a patch was changed on an electronic kick drum and the new setting was about 20dB louder than the previous one. Ooops. Make sure you have a limiter.
They are great for cleaning up stage volume.
... and then the wheel fell off.
I sent the email.....this is the basic idea of it......Roland TD20 is one of the best playing/sounding electronic kits out there. Yes, quite a change from acoustic but very easy to adjust to. I'm currently using a combo of TD6 and the HD1(vdrums lite) with mesh snare and rubber pads for the rest. TD20 is all mesh I believe and the feel is very close to acoustic. Yes you can play with dynamics, but the kit will take some getting used to to do it with style.
For the gig you're doing, it sounds like the perfect way to go. Not sure what you're using for monitor but I've found with elect kit, in ears are the way to go, even if it's one in and one out.
Hope that helps some.
For the gig you're doing, it sounds like the perfect way to go. Not sure what you're using for monitor but I've found with elect kit, in ears are the way to go, even if it's one in and one out.
Hope that helps some.
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nightcrawler_steve
Thanks for the input! I would still like to hear more from folks who use these.
I did get to play these last night for the psuedo audition. I tried to go into it with an open mind as Ive played various e-drums in the past and didnt really care for them. My concern was; how the material I learned on my acoutic kit would translate on an e-kit. A lot of the tunes are quite technical, full of wonderful dynamics and involve a lot of hi hat subtlties, which I love.
Keep in mind I didnt have time to adjust much or build my own kit. I spent the extra time beforehand trying to find 2 or 3 kits I liked. This is how I came away from the experience:
Feel: Pretty good! The mesh heads are as about as close to the feel of real heads as you can get. They are a little more bouncy than the real thing, but all in all I could get use to them.
Sounds: Eh, not too bad I suppose. Again, I didnt have a chance to tweak anything. Kick sounds were really good, but the effects had a negative affect. The snare samples werent too bad, but I didnt find anything I was in love with. The toms sounded like e-drums to me. Ive never heard a kit that didnt. I think a large part of that is dynamics, which Ill touch on later. The cymbals I thought were complete garbage. One again, Ive never heard an electronic cymbal I liked....and these were no different for being "The Flagship" of Roland e-drums.
Dynamics: In all fairness, each drummer plays different and if I had time to tweak and adjust, I may have been able to get them dialed in to something more fitting to my style of play. The cymbals were just awful. The hi-hats, while the samples are real nice, for anyone who really works the hats it was completely frustrating. I was not able to replicate what I was able to acheive with the real thing....not even close! In fact, the most frustrating thing was how it made my playing sound like the timing was off - GRRRRRRR. The snare was also an excercise in frustration. Yes, there is a rim shot - whoopdee. Basically, two sounds: a plain ol head hit and the rim shot. You can chose a "slap stick" rim shot, but you cant get all three. You achieve that sound by hitting the rim and not actually doing a slap stick. There was an Edie Brickell song with a fantastic latin groove with tons of slap stick. Half the time it didnt know to interpet the "slap shot" or the "rim" shot. That song was blown to hell and I worked my ass off nailing that one. F***
I have another gripe with the dynamics of the toms and snare (mostly snare). Say if you do a double stroke, ghost stroke or any 16th or higher note roll from very soft to loud, there is a certain threshhold were the sound jumps or changes drastically in attack or volume making it sound "electronic". The ghost strokes sound real nice and interpret well on the snare, but rolls sound cheesy. This is a problem Ive heard on every single e-kit Ive ever heard and its a dead giveaway.
Percussion, techno and freak sounds: Super cool and the TD 20 brain is full of them. In fact, the brain itself seems to be very advanced and Im sure with time to really dial things in you could improve a lot of the complaints I had. Some of the shortfalls I dont think you could work out would be the cymbals or the roll-dynamic-threshold thing.
The Pros: Good samples, the obvious volume controls and stage volume problems resolved. I think the brain is quite complex and you could really get in there and tweak things. I understand why the other musicians in the band loves these things or people worried about sound levels. I would never argue that. Also to note, we were playing through a very high end system with high end gear, amps, processing, speakers, etc.. We recorded the night and I cant argue the "quality" of the overall sound was very good. However, all the gripes I had glared out at me in the playback, but the sound "quality" was top notch.
As a soundman or a non-drummer, I can certainly understand why these things are well received. I personally would love to incorporate these into my real kit. I think Im going to look into purchasing the Roland Handsonic one of these days. But as a drummer, Id take my dynamics, subtlties and my DW kit over these any day of the week. The ONLY compromise I could see would be using real cymbals with the e-kit. That might not be too bad.
My last thoughts are this is a really nice kit (pricey) and a fun tool for some recording, practice, ease of mix, controlled volume and fairly straight ahead rock/country/punk/pop stuff. In my opinion, not ideal for precise, technical or dynamic styles of music. Roland had only a couple high profile endorsers of this kit. Absolutely no "live" pictures of the set in use. I've certainly never seen it used exclusively in videos, tv, or live concerts that I can recall....not that that matters I guess.
2 cents.....
~S
I did get to play these last night for the psuedo audition. I tried to go into it with an open mind as Ive played various e-drums in the past and didnt really care for them. My concern was; how the material I learned on my acoutic kit would translate on an e-kit. A lot of the tunes are quite technical, full of wonderful dynamics and involve a lot of hi hat subtlties, which I love.
Keep in mind I didnt have time to adjust much or build my own kit. I spent the extra time beforehand trying to find 2 or 3 kits I liked. This is how I came away from the experience:
Feel: Pretty good! The mesh heads are as about as close to the feel of real heads as you can get. They are a little more bouncy than the real thing, but all in all I could get use to them.
Sounds: Eh, not too bad I suppose. Again, I didnt have a chance to tweak anything. Kick sounds were really good, but the effects had a negative affect. The snare samples werent too bad, but I didnt find anything I was in love with. The toms sounded like e-drums to me. Ive never heard a kit that didnt. I think a large part of that is dynamics, which Ill touch on later. The cymbals I thought were complete garbage. One again, Ive never heard an electronic cymbal I liked....and these were no different for being "The Flagship" of Roland e-drums.
Dynamics: In all fairness, each drummer plays different and if I had time to tweak and adjust, I may have been able to get them dialed in to something more fitting to my style of play. The cymbals were just awful. The hi-hats, while the samples are real nice, for anyone who really works the hats it was completely frustrating. I was not able to replicate what I was able to acheive with the real thing....not even close! In fact, the most frustrating thing was how it made my playing sound like the timing was off - GRRRRRRR. The snare was also an excercise in frustration. Yes, there is a rim shot - whoopdee. Basically, two sounds: a plain ol head hit and the rim shot. You can chose a "slap stick" rim shot, but you cant get all three. You achieve that sound by hitting the rim and not actually doing a slap stick. There was an Edie Brickell song with a fantastic latin groove with tons of slap stick. Half the time it didnt know to interpet the "slap shot" or the "rim" shot. That song was blown to hell and I worked my ass off nailing that one. F***
I have another gripe with the dynamics of the toms and snare (mostly snare). Say if you do a double stroke, ghost stroke or any 16th or higher note roll from very soft to loud, there is a certain threshhold were the sound jumps or changes drastically in attack or volume making it sound "electronic". The ghost strokes sound real nice and interpret well on the snare, but rolls sound cheesy. This is a problem Ive heard on every single e-kit Ive ever heard and its a dead giveaway.Percussion, techno and freak sounds: Super cool and the TD 20 brain is full of them. In fact, the brain itself seems to be very advanced and Im sure with time to really dial things in you could improve a lot of the complaints I had. Some of the shortfalls I dont think you could work out would be the cymbals or the roll-dynamic-threshold thing.
The Pros: Good samples, the obvious volume controls and stage volume problems resolved. I think the brain is quite complex and you could really get in there and tweak things. I understand why the other musicians in the band loves these things or people worried about sound levels. I would never argue that. Also to note, we were playing through a very high end system with high end gear, amps, processing, speakers, etc.. We recorded the night and I cant argue the "quality" of the overall sound was very good. However, all the gripes I had glared out at me in the playback, but the sound "quality" was top notch.
As a soundman or a non-drummer, I can certainly understand why these things are well received. I personally would love to incorporate these into my real kit. I think Im going to look into purchasing the Roland Handsonic one of these days. But as a drummer, Id take my dynamics, subtlties and my DW kit over these any day of the week. The ONLY compromise I could see would be using real cymbals with the e-kit. That might not be too bad.
My last thoughts are this is a really nice kit (pricey) and a fun tool for some recording, practice, ease of mix, controlled volume and fairly straight ahead rock/country/punk/pop stuff. In my opinion, not ideal for precise, technical or dynamic styles of music. Roland had only a couple high profile endorsers of this kit. Absolutely no "live" pictures of the set in use. I've certainly never seen it used exclusively in videos, tv, or live concerts that I can recall....not that that matters I guess.
2 cents.....
~S
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floodcitybrass
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:13 am
Our previous drummer used a electric drums and a TD20.
Pros: Sound great as far as tone goes
Cons: too many to list but.....
Most of my issues aren't with the drums themselves. Its with the implementation of using them live.
1) You need a GOOD on stage reinforcement with lots of coverage. We had 8 people so we would spread out on a stage. Running them through stage monitors didnt work either. It muddied up everything.
2) The mix on stage never sounded good to me. It always sounded unnatural. The HH was too loud and you couldnt hear the snare. etc.
3) Sometimes there is a hot spot on the pad. That is, Every so often there would be a really LOUD hit because the stick hit the trigger perfectly.
I guess they would be ok if you do you research and get a good sound reinforcement. A keyboard amp behind the drummer didnt cut if for us. The singer would get nailed with drums and the guys on the end couldnt hear them.
Its just weird because drums generally make noise in 360 degrees and thats what I'm used to.
Pros: Sound great as far as tone goes
Cons: too many to list but.....
Most of my issues aren't with the drums themselves. Its with the implementation of using them live.
1) You need a GOOD on stage reinforcement with lots of coverage. We had 8 people so we would spread out on a stage. Running them through stage monitors didnt work either. It muddied up everything.
2) The mix on stage never sounded good to me. It always sounded unnatural. The HH was too loud and you couldnt hear the snare. etc.
3) Sometimes there is a hot spot on the pad. That is, Every so often there would be a really LOUD hit because the stick hit the trigger perfectly.
I guess they would be ok if you do you research and get a good sound reinforcement. A keyboard amp behind the drummer didnt cut if for us. The singer would get nailed with drums and the guys on the end couldnt hear them.
Its just weird because drums generally make noise in 360 degrees and thats what I'm used to.