I noticed in the thread about genres, and other threads as well, of how many of you don't like jazz. THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT JAZZ. But it got me to thinking .
Does the public (and many musicians) NEED to hear the constant accent of the snare drum on 2 and 4 ?
When you want your drummer "in the pocket", is it the snare drum back beat you need to feel ?
Just how important to YOUR band is the back beat accent ?
Do you personally have a hard time feeling music without a solid back beat ?
Do drummers and bass players and keyboard players and guitar players each feel differently about this ?
I noticed on a recent Tool album that even though the rhythms were all over the place, they made sure the constant feel of quarter notes were present. Was that to please the non-musician fans ?
In the over all history of music, the back beat is recent (1940s ? - 1950s ?). But it seems people today can't listen (to music) with out it .
What do YOU think ?
The ever present (in today's music) BACK BEAT thoughts...
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bassist_25
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In my experience - can't speak for everyone - I had to develop both as a musician and as a MUSIC LISTENER to be able to appreciate music that strayed from the beaten path. Odd time signatures and songs that didn't emphasize the two and the four took some getting use to, but that was nothing to being able to hear more complex harmonies. Some things I use to listen to when I was 14 or 15 that just sounded plain dissonant to my ears sound perfectly fine to me now. The most salient example for me was Shine On You Crazy Diamond by Pink Floyd. The intervals that Gilmour chose for the signature A chord in that song use to sound so dissonant that I'd actually grimace. Now that chord sounds perfectly consonant to my ears. It's a continuum though. For example, there are still compositions from Mahavishnu Orchestra that are still challenging listens for me. A lot of the avante-garde stuff also requires a patient set of ears. I remember a few years ago hearing a duet that Yo-Yo Ma did with a pianist that was quite dissonant and didn't sound "immediately musical" when listening to it casually. The piano was prepared too, which just added to bizarreness of the whole piece.
In Western culture, we're accustomed to 4/4 time with an emphasis on the two and four. We're use to tertian harmony based on 12 half steps. Other cultures go way past tertian harmony (some of the notes in their scales don't have any relative intevals, let alone a relative third). A lot of Eastern music is based on semi-tones rather than half-tones. Western music probably sounds strange to them. I was once told, though, that 4/4 time is universally liked by other cultures. I don't know if that's true or not. However, it would make for an awesome dissertation subject for some music graduate student somewhere to see how much similarity exists in regardles to these types of things.
The Tool thing is interesting, though. I wonder if the producer said, "Hey Danny, while you're doing all of those crazy polyrhythmns in the verse there, could you make sure that you keep a steady pulse on the two and four?" Actually, I think that when you get down to how technically gifted Carey is, I think at his heart, he's still a rock drummer. On my chosen instrument, Victor Wooten can lay down some sweet fusion bass lines, but when you strip away the two-handed tapping and crazy slap stuff, his pocket is ultimately one of someone versed in funk and Larry Graham.
I think that two and four is important for any band that takes to the stage with the intent of making people physically part of the music. It's tough to dance to 11/4. LOL
In Western culture, we're accustomed to 4/4 time with an emphasis on the two and four. We're use to tertian harmony based on 12 half steps. Other cultures go way past tertian harmony (some of the notes in their scales don't have any relative intevals, let alone a relative third). A lot of Eastern music is based on semi-tones rather than half-tones. Western music probably sounds strange to them. I was once told, though, that 4/4 time is universally liked by other cultures. I don't know if that's true or not. However, it would make for an awesome dissertation subject for some music graduate student somewhere to see how much similarity exists in regardles to these types of things.
The Tool thing is interesting, though. I wonder if the producer said, "Hey Danny, while you're doing all of those crazy polyrhythmns in the verse there, could you make sure that you keep a steady pulse on the two and four?" Actually, I think that when you get down to how technically gifted Carey is, I think at his heart, he's still a rock drummer. On my chosen instrument, Victor Wooten can lay down some sweet fusion bass lines, but when you strip away the two-handed tapping and crazy slap stuff, his pocket is ultimately one of someone versed in funk and Larry Graham.
I think that two and four is important for any band that takes to the stage with the intent of making people physically part of the music. It's tough to dance to 11/4. LOL
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Interesting topic for me, as I've worked sans drummer for the last few projects.
In traditional bluegrass, the mandolin plays the part of the snare drum, using quick downstrokes on the backbeat where a snare would be. It's called, "chopping." (BTW, for the uninitiated, the upright bass would then be the kick drum, the banjo is the hi-hat, and the guitar sort of fits where a shaker or tambourine would play. The dobro isn't a rhythm instrument really, so I usually sort of arpeggiate something chord-based.)
Anytime we get away from 4/4 time, there's a bit of fiddling around, but the secret is to simply run the vocal melody in your mind as a reference, which also helps you stay on the arrangement. I understand, you can't always do that in rock, but it works for bluegrass.
The only time there were problems was if one or more members of the band didn't really listen to the material closely enough. We tried Buck Owens' "Together Again" in .OO Buck, and while it's a ballad, the actual beat is 8 to the bar, I think, which confused us. I knew the song from childhood, but the other guys were slow to get a handle on it, and I played steel, so I couldn't play a good reference rhythm for them.
I've been painting houses lately, and we have the luxury of listening to an 80-gig Ipod chockful of excellent music all day long. On Monday, I listened to a lot of Miles Davis, and it was SWEET getting away from 4/4 for awhile.--->JMS
In traditional bluegrass, the mandolin plays the part of the snare drum, using quick downstrokes on the backbeat where a snare would be. It's called, "chopping." (BTW, for the uninitiated, the upright bass would then be the kick drum, the banjo is the hi-hat, and the guitar sort of fits where a shaker or tambourine would play. The dobro isn't a rhythm instrument really, so I usually sort of arpeggiate something chord-based.)
Anytime we get away from 4/4 time, there's a bit of fiddling around, but the secret is to simply run the vocal melody in your mind as a reference, which also helps you stay on the arrangement. I understand, you can't always do that in rock, but it works for bluegrass.
The only time there were problems was if one or more members of the band didn't really listen to the material closely enough. We tried Buck Owens' "Together Again" in .OO Buck, and while it's a ballad, the actual beat is 8 to the bar, I think, which confused us. I knew the song from childhood, but the other guys were slow to get a handle on it, and I played steel, so I couldn't play a good reference rhythm for them.
I've been painting houses lately, and we have the luxury of listening to an 80-gig Ipod chockful of excellent music all day long. On Monday, I listened to a lot of Miles Davis, and it was SWEET getting away from 4/4 for awhile.--->JMS
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Colton
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I really enjoy beats that dont have that plain kinda thing to'm. The kinda beat youre talking about is definately easier to feel, but once you got the groove, youve got the groove, if you know what i mean. It doesnt need to be there by any means.
Laugh if you want to, really is kinda funny, 'cause the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.
Excellent explanation. I've tried recently to explain the same idea to a friend of mine that is interested in learning the mandolin, but I didn't put it quite as well as you did.songsmith wrote: In traditional bluegrass, the mandolin plays the part of the snare drum, using quick downstrokes on the backbeat where a snare would be. It's called, "chopping." (BTW, for the uninitiated, the upright bass would then be the kick drum, the banjo is the hi-hat, and the guitar sort of fits where a shaker or tambourine would play.