Is "Polarization" Dividing Our ........?

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Post by Banned »

songsmith wrote:
RobTheDrummer wrote:
songsmith wrote: the conservative wish-upon-a-star for economic collapse.
the economy will never make the turn.
See?
Well, first of all, unemployment has indeed slowed. New claims are down, the stock market's up, the insurance industry just got a giant welfare package from the govt so they're making a killing, real estate is coming back, except for overpriced commercial property... overall, it's not screaming back to 2006 levels like you seem to think it should a year later, but it's pointing the right direction. Talkshow hosts don't agree... but they all have the most to lose, so of course, they won't "translate" that for you. You have to look at other sources, too.--->JMS
Could not disagree more with you there. See this news, Freddie and Fannie each asking for $400 BILLION more for 2010. Wow, that is NOT good economic news. This FDIC is also requesting more funds for next year and asking for 1600 new employees. That signals that they are expecting more and more banks to fail next year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/1 ... 94095.html

And a recent unemployment number increased for new claims, it got worse. I know you like the koolaid, but look at reality man. No wonder this president does have some of the lowest recorded approval numbers of any first year president.
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Post by songsmith »

Ooh, ooh, if Obama's approval rating rises, will YOU admit you were wrong?--->JMS
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Post by Banned »

songsmith wrote:Ooh, ooh, if Obama's approval rating rises, will YOU admit you were wrong?--->JMS
You mean to lie and say his ratings right now are not the lowest of a first year president?

I don't understand. Oh, his ratings might go up next year some, probably has to , can't get much lower than the all time lowest presidential ratings for a first year.
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Post by songsmith »

I don't mean to say anything, lie or not. I asked a simple one-sentence question. It's your view that Obama is the worst-rated president ever. That seems pretty important to you, as you're ignoring the approval rating of the last guy, who you supported at the time, and all other presidents who've done much worse rating-wise. Let's talk numbers: How many people voted for Ron Paul vs. how many voted for Big Bad O. Even though his poll numbers are down in percentages, the number of people who still support him is pretty big, enough to re-elect him.
Would Ron Paul win today? Nope. :P --->JMS
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Post by whitedevilone »

songsmith wrote:I don't mean to say anything, lie or not. I asked a simple one-sentence question. It's your view that Obama is the worst-rated president ever. That seems pretty important to you, as you're ignoring the approval rating of the last guy, who you supported at the time, and all other presidents who've done much worse rating-wise. Let's talk numbers: How many people voted for Ron Paul vs. how many voted for Big Bad O. Even though his poll numbers are down in percentages, the number of people who still support him is pretty big, enough to re-elect him.
Would Ron Paul win today? Nope. :P --->JMS
Ha ha damn man blah blah.Approval ratings?What numbers are you lookin at bro?Your boy has been an epic failure at everything to date.Look at the fake climate summit this week.China pretty much shoved big O's tail up his asshole and told him to follow it.Yet the great blowhard says "progress was made"????I'm not sure if he's only in the game to convince himself or he really thinks anybody else believes him outside his circlejerk.Dude had a smidge of a chance to put the R's and the I's to bed for 2012 but every step he makes ,every time he speaks, he breaths new life.

For the record i"d vote for Dr. Paul again today.Peace :roll:
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songsmith wrote:I don't mean to say anything, lie or not. I asked a simple one-sentence question. It's your view that Obama is the worst-rated president ever. That seems pretty important to you,
I have said it twice, his ratings are the lowest for a first year president. I did not say that he is the worst rated president ever. Don't try to put words in my mouth.
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Post by f.sciarrillo »

undercoverjoe wrote:
songsmith wrote:I don't mean to say anything, lie or not. I asked a simple one-sentence question. It's your view that Obama is the worst-rated president ever. That seems pretty important to you,
I have said it twice, his ratings are the lowest for a first year president. I did not say that he is the worst rated president ever. Don't try to put words in my mouth.
Jimmy Carter was the worst President ever. Obama is working his way to being the worse.
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Post by Hawk »

f.sciarrillo wrote:
Jimmy Carter was the worst President ever. Obama is working his way to being the worse.
I would ask you why, buy as usual you probably don't know of anything he did. Parrot...
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Post by songsmith »

whitedevilone wrote:
songsmith wrote: Ha ha damn man blah blah.Approval ratings?What numbers are you lookin at bro?Your boy has been an epic failure at everything to date.Look at the fake climate summit this week.China pretty much shoved big O's tail up his asshole and told him to follow it.Yet the great blowhard says "progress was made"????I'm not sure if he's only in the game to convince himself or he really thinks anybody else believes him outside his circlejerk.Dude had a smidge of a chance to put the R's and the I's to bed for 2012 but every step he makes ,every time he speaks, he breaths new life.

For the record i"d vote for Dr. Paul again today.Peace :roll:
You obviously take all that Faux News crap to heart. Well, somebody has to, or Hannity/Beck/O'Reilly won't get their 8-figure paychecks, and the retard-rhetoric will spoil. :D Call me when Big Bad O invades the wrong country, or send all our jobs to China, or gives Big Oil a $20B tax break as they rape the US economy, or any of the other conservative "victories."

And go ahead and vote for Ron Paul. It has the same net effect as voting for Mickey Mouse (zero), and a siphoned-off conservative vote allows a liberal vote to have more effect. The libs don't have to field an effective candidate, because the the Right is so divided. Hey, your propaganda preaches divisiveness, people get divided. The talkshow heroes shot the movement in the foot.
Awesome. :lol: --->JMS
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Post by f.sciarrillo »

Hawk wrote:
f.sciarrillo wrote:
Jimmy Carter was the worst President ever. Obama is working his way to being the worse.
I would ask you why, buy as usual you probably don't know of anything he did. Parrot...
You have yet to rebuttal my post from earlier and like any other liberal, passes it up. As usual - You probably worshiped/worship the ground Carter walked/walks on as well ... :lol:

Let me help you with the rebuttal. Gab, Gab, More BS, GAB, Blah, Blah, Blah (Charlie Brown teacher voice) ..
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Post by lonewolf »

f.sciarrillo wrote:
Hawk wrote:
f.sciarrillo wrote:
Jimmy Carter was the worst President ever. Obama is working his way to being the worse.
I would ask you why, buy as usual you probably don't know of anything he did. Parrot...
You have yet to rebuttal my post from earlier and like any other liberal, passes it up.
Some people complain about being called "liberal" or "left winger".

Its time everybody used the more appropriate label:

NEOPROG
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Post by Banned »

Neosocialist also works.
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Post by lonewolf »

undercoverjoe wrote:Neosocialist also works.
Too many syllables for me. Neoprog describes a wider scope while also sounding worse (rhymes with frog) and is a better counterpart to neocon.

I also think that socialists are just plain old garden-variety left-wingers (nothing really neo about them) bent on wealth redistribution.

On the other hand, modern progressives are a bit different than their predecessors like the Roosevelts--they don't even talk about eugenics anymore! They cover socialism territory but also embrace a host of other whacko issues.
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Post by songsmith »

So, what do call someone who wants to make the richest people richer, feels all poor people are just lazy, wants to decide what is moral, who lives and who dies, forces religious doctrine, feels superior simply because they are born here, refuses to accept any explanation for anything that doesn't reconcile with their worldview, and insists that they have the final say on every subject? :lol: --->JMS
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Post by f.sciarrillo »

songsmith wrote:So, what do call someone who wants to make the richest people richer, feels all poor people are just lazy, wants to decide what is moral, who lives and who dies, forces religious doctrine, feels superior simply because they are born here, refuses to accept any explanation for anything that doesn't reconcile with their worldview, and insists that they have the final say on every subject? :lol: --->JMS
A liberal ... Although there are some points in there are not liberal. Trying make a mixed party ?
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Post by lonewolf »

songsmith wrote:So, what do call someone who wants to make the richest people richer, feels all poor people are just lazy, wants to decide what is moral, who lives and who dies, forces religious doctrine, feels superior simply because they are born here, refuses to accept any explanation for anything that doesn't reconcile with their worldview, and insists that they have the final say on every subject? :lol: --->JMS
That is a good description of both neoprog and neocon elitists. They just have different methods to their madness.
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Post by Hawk »

f.sciarrillo wrote:
f.sciarrillo wrote: You seem to feel that he is so qualified to be a President -> show me what he has done to show that he should be President?
[He was not my Democratic Candidate choice, however between him and McCain (More of Bush) it was Obama hands down. And I explained what he has done. ]
Hawk wrote: You know, it's really hard to discuss politics with someone who doesn't even know anything about the people he wants for president. Then makes an attempt to chance the subject.
You are changing the subject and not answering my question. You are also one naive individual. This President is a ego maniac who has no idea what he is doing. He is making things worse.
Making things worse how ?
Your Parroting of the right wing rhetoric is wrong. Try lifting the wool covering yout eyes]
Hawk wrote:What has Obama done ?
Nothing
[I explained some things he's done]
Hawk wrote:Prevented a major depression. [He didn;t let the banking system collapse, which seems to be what the party of NO wanted.]
There would have been no depression. He only helped the banks because they helped him with campaign contributions. And it was his way of spreading his socialist agenda
Hawk wrote:uld have happened if the banking system and Wall Street had collapsed. Come on, make an attempt to THINK it through. DEPRESSION
Hawk wrote:Making an attempt to fix health care / insurance. [The insurance companies spend $.27 on the $1.00 on actual health care. They bought congress. Yes congress works for corporate America, not the American people]
Finding a way to create a government take over and bankrupt the private insurance industries. Medicare is bankrupt, but yet he wants to cut 500 billion from it. As well as tax the hell out of people, Yeah that sounds right. Nothing like stealing from grandma to spread socialism.
Hawk wrote:e over. Where the hell do you get this shit ?Do you just make it up ? Again you show us you don't understand what the hell is going on. A publis option is not a take over. Damn wake up so you can discuss this with some understanding of what is actually going on.

Your comment about Medicare is so absurd it proves AGAIN how inept you are. He was to CUT COSTS by Billions, not take Billions. Do you understand ? That would make Medicare more solvent . WAKE UP so we can discuss the points.
Yeah, his world apology tour and bowing to people made is look real good and got a lot of respect from people. The Chavez speech at the climategate summit this week shows it ...

AGAIN you have no idea what was in those speeches do you ? I know you neither heard them or read them. You can only PARROT Fox and Limbaugh. Damn, educate yourself.
He helped the unions more than he helped the workers. Sure jobs are being saved, that is why Detroit has the highest unemployment rate in the country. That is why Chrysler was sold to a foreign country. That is why the national unemployment rate is almost 11%, of course with the people who gave up looking for work whose unemployment ran out, or just figured screwed it and went on welfare; The rate is considerably higher.

how stupid are you? Unemployment could be like 20% or higher is he followed the Republican plan. Close the plants altogether. This is frustrating because you seem to have NO ability to actually THINK. Think what ynemployment would be if they CLOSED.
When he pushed that through he said the unemployment rate would not go above 8%. Now like mentioned it is almost at 11%. Look at post above. Of course they are trying to put another one through. More money they are going to borrow and one more step towards their agenda.

He was wrong. He IS human. 11% is better than the 20+% with closing GM and Chrysler. Don't you think ?
This is udder BS ... WHAT ? You do know they moved to China for cheap laber right ? And why would they come back ?
They did and do have plans to fix it, but as always the Dems are not allowing any of it and they are forcing their agenda through. It is nothing like watching a member of the SEIU or Black Panthers beat down someone because they don't agree with the liberals. Yeah!

And you failed to list their plans!!!!! Close GM and Chrysler. Go ahead. List their plan for recovery along with the collapse of the banking system and wall street, list the rest of their plans for us.


This is an irrelevant question because there is going to be a new congress next year. But hence; the current one only votes how they want, they listen to no one. Which is why you will see no dems get re-elected in 2010.

The question IS relevent. They vote acording to what the corporate lobby tells them. They are bought and paid for. Democrats and Republicans.
I bet theirs failed as well. That was the biggest screw up the government has ever done. Now cash for caulkers? WTH? Sheesh ..

The cash for clunkers was a success as Detroit made money. That was the plan. It worked. Are you saying they lost money in Detroit ? Because that could have been called a failure. But the made money. SUCCESS !

The national debt is now at 12 trillion. Of course it will go higher with the way this wonderful President is spending money. The is o.k .. The fed can just print more out and make it worthless (wait, it is already worthless) ... Their are estimates that it could up to 16 trillion within the next two years. Yeah, I know, you will defend that as well.

I, like you, want no National Debt. Will you admit YOU WERE WRONG ? That you had no clue we were about $10 Trillion in debt when Bush left office ? Again proving Fox had wool over your eyes ? It is your lack of knowledge that make me frustrated...
Climategate is the biggest scam in world history. Their are no facts to prove any of it and the recent email revealing proves it.

I want to stop the polluting. So does Obama. The ice caps ARE MELTING. The UNANSWERED question is if it's mans fault? There is science on both sides.
Spoken like a true naive Obama lover ;)

I am defending my positions, not Obama. v
A government run health care system that will be mandatory to get on by 2013. It will put the private sector out of business; it will not be cheap and will not be quality. It will also kill grandma because it will be rationed by need bases. and will fund abortion, the senate just shot down a amendment that would take government funded abortions out of it. It will also put medicare into a bigger hole because of the 500 billion that is it going to cut from it to help pay for it. It is another way to spread the socialist agenda.

DAMN you have NO CLUE !

There is no mandatory "get on" by 2013. They have talked about forcing everyone to buy health insurance. ANY health insurance. The public option or Blue Cross or anything they want. How would that put insurance companies out of business ? More customers = more money for them.

Medicare . I already educated you above. Again proving that you don't know what your talking about, frustrating me.
You just proved my point about how you believe everything the liberals say and do. You only look one way and have no idea what is going on around you. That is o.k .. Come next year we will see you making posts about how congress sucks and saying about how the President isn't getting a fare shake. I am anxious to see what you do in 2012 when he is voted out of office.

Right now Obama has the lowest rating in history for any President in his first year in office. yeah, even his own party is turning on him and people who supported him are turning on him. Maybe that is because they know he is full of nothing but bs ?
I really don't care what his rating is. I think for myself, unlike you, who can only Parrot Fox, as I proved how uneducated you actually are. Obama just happens to agree with what I want.

Now I just wasted my Sunday morning attempting to educate you and try to help you think for yourself. No doubt though, you like that wool covering your eyes. Too bad.
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Post by Hawk »

Why do some of you worship money so much that you are against a public option ? Obviously (to me) is that having every American with health insurance is a moral thing to do.

Why are social programs so scary to moral people ? There is nothing in the Bible that says "don't pay taxes". "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's".

Pure socialism sucks. But remember it is an economic system. The socialist systems like Communism are run by dictators, not a democracy.

Nazi Germany was not socialism. Factories and other corporations were still privately owned. The problem with the German Government was it was a dictatorship.

Don't confuse dictatorships with socialism. Or with a democracy with capitalism and social programs.

We have a democracy. We are capitalists with social programs. The streets you drive on are socialism. Would you rather they were privately owned ? And a toll both on every corner ?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand. In today's modern society, why so many are against the moral thing to do, helping our fellow man. Why is your money more important to you than helping those without proper medical access. I would hope it's not greed.

Some of you will say they don't want to be forced to pay taxes to help the underprivileged. Let the charities take care of it. Well, charity isn't working.

Frank is worried about the lazy slackers. So am I. And the lazy slackers are immoral idiots. Taking advantage of the system. However I would say that the majority of people who need help also work and are not slackers. They are the ones I want to help. Since there is no way to root out the slackers without increasing government bureaucracy, I would help them too. I would NOT eliminate helping the working majority because of the lazy slackers.

Sorry for the rant and the religious overtones, but I believe helping my fellow man is more important than money.
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Post by lonewolf »

Hawk wrote:Why do some of you worship money so much that you are against a public option ? Obviously (to me) is that having every American with health insurance is a moral thing to do.
Because the public option is simply a bad, unsustainable plan. The end simply does not justify the means.

In case you haven't noticed, we also can't afford it. We are so far in debt that we can't even come close to paying the interest on the debt, let alone new programs. A bankrupt country is unable to provide for its citizens.

Besides, if we were a democracy (which we are not), all the polls indicate that you are in the minority on this issue and even without the public option included, this health care bailout for the insurance companies would be shot down in flames in a national referendum.

Now, could you please explain why you so desperately want the public option?
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Post by songsmith »

I think we have helped Frank be a better conservative. A year ago, he only glossed over what Faux Nooz said, now he knows all the talking points by heart. You have to admit, the sheep are really digging in for this, even if they're patsies, they're willing to fight for the right to keep America on the backward path to oblivion.
America is the only civilized country in the world where healthcare is not a right, but gun ownership is. We've lost a huge chunk of our manufacturing base (jobs for lower and lower-middle income families) due to corporate greed and govt corruption. Our media is owned by a few foreign billionaires and multinational corporations who use it to divide and conquer the masses. A vocal minority who once had enough power to cause spurious wars now feels entitled to the authority they lost via the democratic process, and blames everyone who isn't themselves. Truth and fairness are no longer matters of fact, but of opinion, and are subjective to the pseudo-morality of people who still believe they should rule the world. Those people cannot allow thought that doesn't fit through the narrow window of the world they can see without deep thought. They save time by simply letting media moguls and entertainers do their thinking for them. They get angry when told to, and feed on one another's rage.
Civil protests are now a valuable part of govt works, though only a few short years ago, they were dangerous and evil. Blind nationalism is de rigeur, something to be applauded and admired, but only in our country, as no other country is sovereign.
Words like freedom and liberty are now catch-phrases, used in association with words like socialism and statism. Freedom must be filtered through conservative morality and capitalism, and is doled out only to those deemed worthy by the elitist rightwing minority.
History itself is also a matter of opinion, and must be filtered through conservative lenses. Past blunders, falsehoods, and crimes by the Right are now accepted as being good for our country, or simply forgotten. The leaders who brought us to the edge of ruin are deified or at least, forgiven unconditionally. Or ignored.
Capitalism is considered a perfect system, on a religious level. The Constitution is a perfect document, akin to the Bible. The founding politicians are like Apostles who despite owning human slaves, were without sin, and could easily see 234 years into the future.

Yeah, maybe we DO need more rightwing rule. Forced Christianity. Lower wages and no benefits. Kids dying in hellholes for nothing. Robber barons and televangelists in charge. Book-burnings and fewer middle-class. Prisons overflowing and polluted rivers. Privatized armies and crumbling infrastructure. But no taxes.
Sounds nice. :roll: --->JMS
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Quotes within quotes within quotes are obnoxious. I automatically turn off when I see them. I'd be willing to bet others do, too (a poll, perhaps). It's like putting as many colors on a website as possible just because they are available to you. It just looks like a mess and takes away from the message.

One or two things at a time will suffice.
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Post by Banned »

songsmith wrote: America is the only civilized country in the world where healthcare is not a right, but gun ownership is.
You post as if there is something wrong with that statement. One is listed as a specific right in our Bill of Rights. The other does not appear on any of our founding documents.
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Post by PStl »

such optomism! I thought we were the doomsdayers!

anyway, check out this guy, John Mackey, he was on Stossel last night.
Seems like a great health care plan, his employees are happy with it. I liked Stossel's show, he had plenty of opposing viewpoints.
This is a very complex problem, and worthy of debate.
Please read:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 65070.html

may not be perfect, and may not cover everybody, but having the individual make his own decisions is important.
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Post by f.sciarrillo »

The Republicans are supposed to be revealing their plan tomorrow.

As a note: It was said on the news today that 25 democrats are retiring next year. More like getting out to save their asses, as they know they will not be re-elected ..

Also, I like stossel as well.
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Post by songsmith »

undercoverjoe wrote:
songsmith wrote: America is the only civilized country in the world where healthcare is not a right, but gun ownership is.
You post as if there is something wrong with that statement. One is listed as a specific right in our Bill of Rights. The other does not appear on any of our founding documents.
You don't see the irony? I guess not, nuance isn't a strong suit.
I always marvel at how important owning a gun is to some people. I have a right to own a hammer, too. Big deal. It's just a gun, to people who aren't afraid of everything. Put bullets in, aim, fire. Yawn. I have a few guns. I have a few handtools. It's not the power of life and death for me, like it is for the folks who are ineffective otherwise. I don't need that power, and if I did, I could do it a bunch of other ways.
Besides, doesn't the Bill Of Rights give the right to "bear" arms? That means "carry," as in "carry a weapon, in an army." It's perfectly clear. You have a God-given right to be in the army. Hoo-rah.
And the Constitution guarantees us the right to worship whatever god we choose AND free speech, doesn't it? Wouldn't that mean I can say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Xmas" or "Crispy Frikkin' Chicken" without fear of repercussion? But I can't, can I? Filtered freedom.
Let me point something out to you that your talkshow heroes can't: You can't find me a line, passage, word or single letter in the US Constitution that completely defines conservatism as rule of law. Any such inferrence is strictly in the "translation" or "interpretation" of someone who only sees what they want to see, someone who FILTERS FREEDOM through their own biases. The entire point was to encourage free thought by free citizens, not to define puritanism, rightwing elitism, theocracy or the power of the monied upper-class. Of which you are not a member.
I'm sure your final solution is in your post. Combine healthcare reform and gun-ownership. Shoot the sick and injured. It would reduce population, thereby decreasing unemployment, reducing welfare payouts, solving the SocSec crisis, drastically cut insurance-corp payouts, opening private lands for business use, eliminating govt meddling in healthcare, cutting wear and tear on infrastructure, opening up the money supply... goddamn, it's pure GENIUS! You could finally wield that life-and-death power you so desire, AND make a tidy profit! Oh, but Joe:

Don't get sick.----->JMS
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